[melasadra]

Some people laugh at the 800W output. However, in Indonesia, roughly half of the 300 million people live in homes with an electricity capacity of 900W or less.

Wish these kind of panels were available at that price here. We have pretty much 12 hours of sunlight every single day but household solar panel is discouraged by the state owned utilities.

[Kim_Bruning]

To be sure, when talking about solar panels, 800W is the nominal/nameplate capacity. That's how much it generates when conditions are perfect and the sun is shining straight down on them. Most of the time an 800W installation will produce rather less than that.

You'd need rather more panels (and/or some combination with batteries) to hit 900W output constantly. (on the other hand, do you need 900W constantly, or is that peak usage? A battery might be able to handle that.) That said, solar panels are probably a lot more efficient in Indonesia than they are in Germany. Since you're in/near the tropics, perhaps 1500-2000W nameplate capacity could cover your 900W? See if you can get a local expert do the maths for you.

[g4cg54g54]

panels up to 2000W is legal, the 800w limit is actual net input, you can even battery in-between (or use it directly)

[seydor]

Nominal capacity is not the maximum, there are plenty of zones where panels perform way above for most of the day.

Germany is definitely not one of those zones

[jwr]

> Some people laugh at the 800W output

As a data point, 200-300W is enough to heat a 35m2 wooden house to 20°C with a heat pump, in Poland, so with external temperatures normally between -5°C and 15°C.

Your watts can go much farther than you think.

[ManBeardPc]

The awesome part is you can circumvent the 800W. First you can legally install 2000W solar panels, making 800W output much more likely. The 800W is only how much you can feed back into the grid. Second you can install one or more batteries and feed devices from them, further increasing the usable energy.

[aitchnyu]

Can we generate 2 kw, charge batteries and ensure only 800 is fed back at any time?

[ManBeardPc]

Yes, that is exactly what is happening. 2000W solar panels feed the battery, up to 800W are allowed to be fed back into the grid/house network. Keep in mind you could also plug a 3000W device directly into the battery, meaning you could power a lot more than that if it is not connected to the grid. If you have devices that need little power for a long duration or high power for a short duration they can be fed with 100% solar that way. Depending on your use case that can save further money.

[detaro]

yes

[kragen]

Is it discouraged so hard that you can't get it at all? I'd think it would be pretty hard to keep people from importing solar panels from Vietnam or Thailand—although of course you'd probably have to put it somewhere that surveillance drones could see it, if you want it to get any sun. (In that case, if you have a rooftop, maybe you could put it under a frosted-glass skylight.)

If anything, I'd expect the prices to be lower. Do you have a local Indonesian equivalent of eBay like we do here in Argentina? Or, just eBay?

I assume "electricity capacity of 900W" means that the wires from the transformer (and in the walls) are only rated for 4 amps at 230VAC. This means that you can't really run a 2000-watt air conditioner at all. Whereas, with an 800-watt solar panel charging a battery, you can run a 2000-watt air conditioner 40% of the time when the panel is in full sun. Washing machines and refrigerators are an even bigger difference, since they usually have huge peaks of current draw when they start up their motors, but relatively low average power. So the solar panels may actually be a much bigger boon than simply comparing 800 to 900 makes it sound like. A single car battery can typically source 6000 watts for brief periods of time.

[shellfishgene]

https://www.tokopedia.com/ is the Indonesian Amazon. You can get everything it seems, also grid-tied inverters, but the prices are higher than in Europe from a quick check. Probably import taxes.

[kragen]

Thank you very much!

[neurostimulant]

> Is it discouraged so hard that you can't get it at all?

The state's power company seems to stop approving grid-connected solar panel system due to oversupply. It's fine if it's not connected to the grid.

[lucb1e]

What do you mean by 'that price'? Are there heavy import tariffs or another artificial reason why you can't order from the same chinese manufacturers as germany does?

I would have thought that the issue is purchasing power inequality between germany and indonesia, not that they're not available globally at a similar price

[PieTime]

Some countries with state gas or utility monopoly will ensure legislation blocks solar power. Example Thailand has huge solar potential but cheap gas, so they block solar panel installations

Yes, there is inequality as can be seen in Pakistan. But once restrictions are dropped the solar panels take off.

[lucb1e]

Surely you can do what you want within your own home, so long as you don't hook it up to the grid?

I'm also not sure if this fits with the price restriction they mentioned. Prohibitions can't be bypassed by paying a higher price, unless it were to refer to bribes

[gpm]

The systems in the article are hooked up to the grid though.

They're hooked up in an extremely safe and responsible manner, but it's understandable that there are regulations about what can be hooked up, and simply not surprising that they haven't been updated to say "yeah, this is ok".

[AnthonyMouse]

A lot of solar systems are set up to sell excess power back to the grid. It makes sense that these systems would have some regulatory criteria because you wouldn't want e.g. home solar systems putting power on the lines when the utility company has the power off because of a downed wire or active work.

It's also possible to have a solar system that doesn't do this. Either you have a battery system and if you generate excess power you only put it into your own batteries or the system is small relative to the load of the house so you're rarely if ever generating more than you're actively using and configure the system so the grid is only ever attached to the input side. This should not be any more dangerous to the grid than using a UPS or charging an electric car and if the regulations make it more difficult than that they should be suspected of malicious intent.

[gpm]

The systems discussed in the article aren't necessarily selling excess power back to the grid, but they are sending it back to the grid (possibly for free). Because they work by pumping power into a wall socket.

They do so responsibly (fancy electronics that turn them off when the grid goes down). But it is the case where you are acknowledging that extra regulatory criteria make sense.

[wheels]

They're actually actively subsidized in Germany to make them artificially cheap.

[slow_typist]

True, the cut of 19% VAT on panels, inverters (which is applicable to any household PV installation, not only on the balcony) are a subsidy but in the meantime prices came down so much that it’s not really relevant anymore. (440 Wp panels go for 60 EURO a piece and a 800 W Hoymiles inverter for around 120 so total subsidy is around 50 EURO.) Other subsidies paid for by the communal bodies are long gone. Cutting the VAT helped to accelerate diffusion but that is what subsidies are made for. Probably the simplification of the registration process is by far more important. And last but not least the VAT cut for solar is a rounding error compared to the subsidies of ICE car traffic.

[cycomanic]

While I sort of agree that VAT exemption is a sort of subsidy it's important to remember that all other power generation typically receives the same "subsidy" because it's done by companies which don't pay VAT.

[slow_typist]

By definition, only the end customer pays VAT. But also on grid power in Germany. So no subsidy here.

[cycomanic]

That's sort of my point. You are essentially getting to parity to a grid operator, who does not pay VAT.

[kragen]

Are those retail prices? Are you buying them in a store, or what? 440Wp/60€ is only 0.136€/Wp, which is higher than the wholesale 0.100€/Wp price reported on Solarserver, but only barely.

The word "diffusion" does get used in this way in English, but many native English speakers may be unfamiliar with it.

[slow_typist]

Yeah retail prices. And yes you can buy them in a store like home depot or order them on the internet but shipping is prohibitively expensive for small amounts. Cheapest source are local firms that install PV professionally and sell via kleinanzeigen.de as a side business or to get rid of excess stock.

Thanks for the clarification, also on the use of the word diffusion. In social sciences it is common though, there is even a book titled “Diffusion of Innovations”.

[kragen]

Thank you very much! Yes, it's more than a book, it's a whole intellectual movement, although maybe not a very lively one anymore.

[martin_a]

Panels etc. have become really cheap now: https://www.globus-baumarkt.de/p/schwaiger-balkonkraftwerk-8...

That's 0,38 Euro/W of panel power, including inverter and cable. And there might be a solid price uptick on that because of the shop that's selling it. Wholesale from specialized shops is probably much cheaper...

[kragen]

Just for the record, that seems to be an 860Wp "Schwaiger Balkonkraftwerk 860 Wp Wifi fähig" for €325, "inkl. gesetzl. MwSt.", but not including "Versand- & Lieferbedingungen + 99,99 € Versandkosten". So it's €424.99, which is €0.494 per peak watt, about five or ten times the wholesale price of just the solar module.

[hedora]

The sunlight is going to follow a bell curve. Assume 800W at noon, and pessimistically approximate the curve with a triangle. That’s 400W * 12 hours. That’s 4.8 kwh per day.

If your house is provisioned for 900W peak, you aren’t running a furnace, a/c, electric heat, or an EV. 4.8 kWh will go a long way in those circumstances. (It’d handle a fridge or two if you could time shift the power, or got one that’s designed to hold cold over night with no power)

I don’t think you strictly need utility approvals to install balcony solar. Usually, you can either not wire them into the house at all, or have a switch to switch the house between grid and solar. (It’s better to back feed into the grid, but that requires utility cooperation. If properly installed the switch I describe is safe but maybe illegal.)

[kragen]

Indonesia gets a great deal more sunlight than Germany, almost twice as much: https://solargis.com/resources/free-maps-and-gis-data?locali...

Legality can be a funny thing. Governments can make anything they want illegal. Here in Argentina it's illegal to import used capital equipment that hasn't been refurbished by the original manufacturer or to import maps that say that the Malvinas Islands aren't part of Argentina. In Thailand it's illegal to step on paper currency because the king's face is on it.

[alias_neo]

What are your most high powered appliances there?

Thinking about my home (in the UK) the "worst offenders" seem to be things that heat things, washing machine when it's heating water (~2.5kW), electric oven (~2-4kW), kettle (~1-2kW), electric heater (1-2kW).

Outside of those, we could have most other things on in the house and not be using much more than 1kW, though granted I've been very intentional with electrical efficiency with the electrical and electronic devices in our home (by UK standards).

[herbst]

Heating is always the culprit (or cooling but that's less of an issue in our area).

But one thing to realize is that the industry was just lazy and none of this is actually "needs" a full electric line.

- You don't need actual heat for washing clothes if you using washing detergent. There are no real simple "machines" available as far as I know, except simple camping washing machines

- A rice cooker can work from as low as 250w. I have a "cooking" option in mine drawing 500w taking no longer than the usual 2000w plate (better isolation, optimized heat transfer, ...) to get water cooking.

- Heaters are difficult, I've tried a lot of electric options and they all draw a lot of power when you heat something like 20°C over the outside temperature. However ex. "Ecomat 2000" (small ceramic heater) can easily heat a average room at 450 watts.

One way to get warm and way lower wattage is heating blankets. From 50 - 100w usually on for 50% you get very far with little power.

Not sure if that helps anyone. But I spent a lot of time researching efficient caravan alternatives.

Ergo. 800 watts can be a lot.

[hshdhdhehd]

Most powerful draw is going to be on heating and cooling things which can also be done using gas. Is Indonesia using a lot of gas (or even wood) or they just not cooking?

[shellfishgene]

Kerosene cookers are still very popular in Indonesia, or gas from portable bottles. I've not seen gas refrigerators, but maybe some people also have them.

[adrianN]

Germany is using gas or oil for heating too. Heat pumps are gaining popularity, but most heating is still fossil fuels.

[ReptileMan]

The real output is probably 200-250 W in perfect conditions. It just points to how insanely expensive German electricity is after they decided to commit the double suicide of ditching nuclear and Russian gas.

[watwut]

Russia gas is suicide. Especially considering that Russia plans war against the Europe and even already started act on those plans.

[GordonS]

This is satire... right?

[watwut]

1.) Russia is already sending drones to border countries.

2.) Russian politicians openly talk about such possibility.

3.) Russian interest in expansion is no secret.

War with Russia is a real possibility. Considering NATO is not reliable anymore (due USA being less then reliable partner) , considering China seem to low key support Russia, it is not even crazy from the Russian side.

[ReptileMan]

>War with Russia is a real possibility

No it is not because of 3 reasons:

1. Russia has no resources to wage war on NATO 2. Russia has no resources to wage war on NATO 3. Russia has no resources to wage war on NATO

War with russia is mostly hawks' and chicken littles' of the media wet dreams.

[flohofwoe]

If anything has become clear in the last couple of years is that Russia doesn't act rationally, and their government lies as soon as they open their mouths. E.g trying to explain Russia's actions with 'reason' is just a waste of time.

Also: "if you want peace, prepare for war" has never been more true than now, as sad as that is.

[dgroshev]

Russia is still by far the biggest country in Europe, with tons of natural resources and support from the biggest industrial manufacturer on the planet. It has an industry that is now fully oriented to produce military goods in war-time quantities that it can't easily spin down.

Russia does have resources, it has the desire, and importantly the state it depends on (China) has a very strong motivation to have Nato distracted when it acts on its plans for Taiwan.

[watwut]

That assumes NATO would fight Russia. USA can not be trusted anymore to keep their obligations.

[GordonS]

On drones: there is no evidence of that. The supposed "drone ship" that was siezed by France turned out to be crewed by Chinese and had no drones or weapons on board. A Croatian citizen were arrested regarding the drone near Frankfurt airport. Three Germans were arrested regarding the drones near Oslo.

Consider what Russia could possibly have to gain by randomly flying drones near civilian airports... nothing? Consider what NATO have to gain - stirring up anti-Russian sentiment, garnering consent for massive expenditure on an "EU drone wall" and continued money laundering in the Ukraine.

Please show me where Russian politicians openly talk about flying drones around European airports? I've seen Putin and others ridicule the very notion - and it really is ridiculous. Oh, I forgot about the supposed Russian drones in Poland too, drones which don't even have the range to get to Poland, and which had literally been duct-taped together from the remains of Russian drones and placed for a photoshoot!

Look at this map of NATO's expansion eastward toward Russia, and then please do tell about Russia's supposed expansion plans: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:History_of_NATO_enla...

War with Russia is only a real possibility because the US and EU want it.

[dgroshev]

"The Ukraine" is offensive, please refrain from using it. Wikipedia covers some of the history behind the use of the definite article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Ukraine#English_defini...

[mopsi]

  > Consider what Russia could possibly have to gain by randomly flying drones near civilian airports... nothing?

What could Russian military intelligence possibly have to gain from an arson attack on a COOP grocery store in rural Estonia? And yet, they were caught red-handed: https://english.nv.ua/nation/two-gru-arsonists-jailed-in-est... Many other Russian-sponsored terrorist cells have also been caught and are awaiting trial or have been sentenced, the most notable being a network that tried to smuggle incendiary devices aboard DHL cargo planes.

  > Oh, I forgot about the supposed Russian drones in Poland too, drones which don't even have the range to get to Poland

Then how do they reach western Ukraine every night? It's much farther away than the distance Russian drones penetrated into Poland.

  > Look at this map of NATO's expansion eastward toward Russia, and then please do tell about Russia's supposed expansion plans

Comparing European countries voluntarily joining a mutual defense pact to a foreign invasion is moronic. You could make a similar map for any major international organization: the closer a country was to Russia, the less developed it tended to be (no coincidence) and the later it joined. Has the Council of Europe been slowly expanding towards Russia and threatening them with human rights? Has Starbucks been fighting a shadow war to surround Russia with mediocre coffee?

[empiricus]

Well, for some context, most new NATO members were previously under communism regimes and soviet influence in the past. After getting their freedom, the next step was to make sure they are safe from Russia.

[watwut]

There is evidence of Russian drones entering Polish airspace. That has nothing to do with any ships.

> Consider what NATO have to gain - stirring up anti-Russian sentiment, garnering consent for massive expenditure on an "EU drone wall" and continued money laundering in the Ukraine.

NATO should do more to help Ukraine. They absolutely should.

>Look at this map of NATO's expansion eastward toward Russia,

That is countries deciding to join NATO in the hope it will protect them against Russia. No one forced them into NATO. Russia does not like it only because NATO prevents Russia from expanding. This is such a ridiculous talking point.

[symbogra]

They're really pushing it hard in the media here

[GordonS]

It's being pushed hard in the UK too. Some of what the tabloids spout is just totally unhinged.

It's got to the point where the media/gov could claim Russians eat babies, and many would believe it.

[te_chris]

They deported and abducted enough kids in Ukraine, so close enough.