[jackstraw42]

> F-Droid's curation saved me at least once when I wanted to upgrade my Simple™ apps and couldn't find them in F-Droid anymore, which led me to learn that SimpleMobileTools was sold to a company that closed sourced the apps[1] and that there's a free fork called Fossify[2].

> Had I installed these through Google Play, they wouldn't have cared about this particular change and I would've gotten whatever random upgrades the new owners pushed.

sheesh. I've spent my whole mobile device life on iOS and am just now learning an Android device. While I feel I have more control over the finer details of my personal privacy and security, this ecosystem is a total minefield if you care about avoiding spyware and malware.

I'm glad I trusted my instincts and only installed F-Droid first before any apps from the Play Store. Just now found the Isolation app so I can create a Work Profile and separate personal life from the life that the relentless data vacuums are constantly trying to pull from the simplest apps these days.

Neither mobile OS is perfect, but I feel like I was correct about Apple having the user's personal privacy still much more of a priority than Google. There was never any question if those were the two options, IMO. But it does seems like now, finally, Android might be ready to deploy as a mobile operating system for the public. I'm fairly certain that this Android ecosystem that's used its users for so long as guinea pigs (not just Android, but the full unrefined and frankly unsophisticated media sphere as a whole that's been figuring out how to effectively work on us) has harmed the last generation or two beyond repair.

This became all too clear when the first thing I did on my first Android device a few weeks ago was install an offline keyboard from devs with my privacy interests in mind. Spent a few minutes thinking about what it would have been like living with this shitty keyboard system on iOS and realized that honestly, I am lucky that I stuck with iOS through all of this and feel like my mental health is much better than it would have been had I been fighting a malware-riddled Android device this whole time.

edit: I'm not saying you shouldn't use Android or that it's a bad idea, I do think that it is solid enough now (and maybe has been for a while, I don't know) that I can safely protect myself after learning. But ask yourself if all Android users would take the time to properly learn? What about kids?

[port11]

We use Nara to track our baby's food intake and sleep.

A couple of months ago I noticed Little Snitch complaining about the app making new connections to malware domains. Thankfully I can run the app on macOS and noticed it.

When confronted with how this violated their Privay Policy, they gave a condescending reply. When I contacted Apple about this new update to the app, they ignored my report.

So… no, we're not safer on iOS. Perhaps the barrier to entry is a bit higher to discourage some low-hanging fruit, but Apple does very little for the 30% commission it takes.

[pydry]

They mean safer from apps like NewPipe which threaten their margins by giving users their attention back.

[jackstraw42]

Safer from apps that do insane but legal data collection is what I am worried about. Why would a foreign adversary need a hacking team when they can just buy what they need from an American company built to sell detailed personal information on Americans using shitty malware-riddled products?

[_blk]

It's not like they're the only bullies in town (@bigG: try to remember "do no evil" and you were an actually cool tech company rather worth applying to, worth having on your resume).

I paid for Prime Video to remove ads only to find that now they'll play skipable ads again at the start of a movie and this time I don't even have the option of paying again..

I'm not against big profits, and I'm definitely not in favor of more regulation to attempt to fix it but I am against mico-maximization of profit with obviously consumer-unfriendly behavior. The way to fix it, IMHO, is to start over with yet another small guy that comes in and does it right. Angel Studios is doing pretty good and although the content selection is much more limited, the overall vibe is great, feels safe to leave children around for more than 2 minutes (unlike youtube kids).

[Imustaskforhelp]

we must think of the shareholders!!! No, how can you! I want to give billionaires more profits that would most likely just be a number to them while selling myself for them, Noo.

(satirical post)

[jackstraw42]

> Perhaps the barrier to entry is a bit higher to discourage some low-hanging fruit, but Apple does very little for the 30% commission it takes.

As someone who is diligent about staying on top of these things, I thank you for sharing this because this is what I'm talking about: it is not clear at all to an average user who is trying to do task X with their phone (note that's *not* "do task X securely while protecting personal data").

I figured Apple didn't do a whole lot, but I still feel the policies must do something. Please do tell if you know specifics though. And I am very disappointed with all the near-literal shit that's flooded the iOS app store the last few years. Overall, my opinion about it all is that we need to take some time to think about everything we've learned and rebuild something new from the ground up. GrapheneOS seems promising.

[smaudet]

> but I still feel the policies must do something

That has been the problem with Apple, a lot of feeling inspired by nice UI design, and a lot of screw-you-over in the background (draconian dev policies, nonsense security requirements that make you less, not more, secure, and money grubbing that doesn't make the users any better off)...

Maybe in a world with Steve Jobs, it could have been different, who knows. I don't get the sense that Tim Cook "gets" it.

[port11]

Companies are made of people, not just their figurehead.

Jobs wasn't a nice person, as it's been documented. And if he was surrounded by MBAs and PMs trying to make a career, the results might be similar to what we have.

I do think Cook is a terrible CEO on the product side. But he's made Apple richer than ever. I'm not upgrading to the 26 version of the OS'es (btw what a stupid version bump).

[oofbey]

Can you give examples of nonsense security policies that make you less secure? I’ve always thought Apple’s security policies have been exemplary, forward thinking, and balanced.

[jackstraw42]

I have lost faith in Apple as a current best choice because of the things you say. Maybe it's dumb for me to think of it this way, but I was just expressing that I'm happier overall with how Apple handled it while I've had an iPhone. I felt like I was in better hands, even though I know just about all their shortcomings that have been made public. Still, I don't think there was a better choice for the general average Joe than an iOS device. They have kept my parents safe from identity theft, any malware (that I know of), stolen credit cards, etc. And I think they deserve some (intangible, feelings-based) credit for that.

This morning I ordered a Pixel phone after realizing they are available in my price range after all (thanks to this discussion, specifically one of the few who didn't try to argue with me) so GrapheneOS is what I would personally recommend if anyone was thinking I was trying to say "iOS is better, prove me wrong". I was more looking for others to share similar thoughts, not attempt to shut me down, but such is life.

[kmeisthax]

To be clear, Apple's authoritarian tendencies are directly downstream of Steve Jobs' authoritarian tendencies. Tim Cook's just continuing what was already there in 2014. It was Apple policy to lock down everything with code signing since the iPhone. Hell, I think it started being a company mandate around the 4th or 5th gen iPod.

The one thing Jobs didn't account for[0] was that iOS apps were going to take off and thus owning the signing keys to iOS would be extremely lucrative. Jobs' original iOS development mandate was "webapps only", at least until the jailbreak developers embarrassed him enough to change his mind. Even then, he genuinely thought 30% was going to just barely defray the costs of running the App Store.

The actual difference between Jobs and Cook is that Tim Cook isn't nearly as charismatic. Jobs had the "reality distortion field" - the ability to confidently lie so hard that the engineers believe the lie and actually make it true. It's the sort of authoritarian manifestation that Donald Trump is desperately trying (and failing) to tap into.

[0] In Jobs' defense the last SDK they'd shipped for portable devices was iPod games.

[port11]

I've ran Graphene for a year to complement an iPhone; sadly, Device Attestation makes it non-viable as a main phone. Banking apps and what we used to id ourselves are a whack-a-mole of incompatibility. For everything else, I do think it's a great solution.

For reference on Nara, it tries to connect to domains such as dewrain.*, vaicore, akisinn, etc. (many TLDs) Little Snitch was the only way I'd know. Sadly it means we're unsafe on iOS and Android, so we've stopped using any features that might be or leak PII. Just milk and sleep.

This unnerved me so much that I'm building an app for parents on the side. I can't believe our options are free with trackers or expensive (with trackers). And Nara was clean before the update around March.

[jackstraw42]

Wow! Well you never know where simple frustrations will lead, or in your case noticing something that you just can't shake that no one else seems to think is important. I'd say keep me posted, but that's not on you especially while you're developing that app. I wish you the best of luck, and it sounds like you're doing it with a really unique and authentic perspective that I wouldn't be sure that any of the apps that become popular on either App Store can guarantee. Seriously, the world might depend on you :)

I had a feeling about what you described with GrapheneOS would be the case, and that's what kept me from really considering it as a replacement for my iPhone until talking with some folks in this thread. I really don't see myself getting out of using an iPhone as my "main phone" tied to my phone number since my wife is neck-deep in the whole Apple ecosystem (and I truly believe that being flexible in this regard is worth it and makes our lives a whole lot better, even when the issue in question is what I would consider a simple moral non-negotiable, securely protecting my and my family's personal data. just means that I have more solving to do before the solution).

My solution for now is to always run everything through a trusted VPN and NextDNS on the iPhone, or as much as iOS will let me I guess, and using this as my new Pixel's gateway to the internet when I'm away from a trusted connection. I will also be running everything through the VPN when I'm using GrapheneOS, so when I am out and about I'm not treating my not-entirely-trustworthy iPhone any differently than a Starbucks hotspot. Sometimes the convenience really makes a difference, not all the time but it does matter occasionally.

[port11]

That's a very good approach.

What I've been trying to do is have the critical apps on the iPhone, which stays home; then take the Graphene around as much as possible. It's making me use the phone less as well, since my Pixel isn't very interesting.

Now to convince more family members to connect via a VPN… hmm. No wonder we lost the war on privacy.

Maybe check that your partner has Advanced Data Protection on. iCloud without it is what got us all these iCloud leaks in the past.

And thank you for the kind words :)

[crtasm]

:( Would you be willing to share Nara's full reply?

[port11]

Oh, I remembered it wrong. It's just an automatic reply. The condescending one was to my suggestion to use median values instead of averages.

[pxoe]

Would you even find out if an app has been sold to another company on iOS app store? It's confusing to see all of that diatribe when it doesn't even do much (if anything it almost lulls you into a false sense of security), and you just have less options to choose from to get around being locked out of using your device for apps you want.

[jackstraw42]

> Would you even find out if an app has been sold to another company on iOS app store?

On this particular issue, no. But I also make a habit of not leaving old apps that I don't use lingering around on my phone. And I'm pretty sure I know all of those haven't been bought out by a data predator, apart from 23andme.

I just trust what Apple has done in other areas for my personal privacy and security, and I know they have insanely high and probably unreasonable standards for their app stores. and I don't install obviously predatory garbage apps. I feel like I could have only achieved this level of confidence in my mobile device with iOS. And to be clear that's just an opinion :)

[pxoe]

Insane and unreasonable standards sounds right, but I'm not sure about privacy and security all that much. It's just naive to assume something is totally malware free, and they're not actually disincentivized from just keeping some more subtle scammy apps around if they just generate them 30% fee revenue anyway. There's a bit of magical thinking that goes into assuming just how "good" they are at it, when they literally just don't even do some of those vaguely insinuated things.

(to me, if some os is unable to have both freedom of installing apps/sideloading and security (with help of malware checking and other measures that keep bad stuff away), and only able to achieve that "security" only by completely locking down what apps can be run and how apps are obtained, it seems like either a failure to accomplish actual security there, or rather just a pretense to keep a platform locked down.)

[ElectricalUnion]

Information security's primary focus is the balanced protection of data confidentiality, integrity, and availability, so, not having availability of the things the user wants to do is a failing grade. In this case you can pretend you value other things, not security.

[jackstraw42]

That's fair. Unfortunately, like with the national politics here, we have two shitty options.

[pxoe]

Well, like with "national politics" (what nation?), even if there may be only two options functionally, it's also just pretending that there are only two options there at all. (while almost actively ignoring any other options)

Like, while it may sound annoying and nitpicky, android is not just "one option of the two", it has a bunch of versions/flavors/forks/whatever you wanna call it, that vary between manufacturers, and also alternative distributions that can be installed on devices, situations that iphone just does not have, at all or to that extent. (quite linuxy in that way if you squint real hard.) I'm struggling to worry about this whole debacle with google floating about whatever they're floating about (currently it's that vague) all that much, when android is that malleable.

There are also actual Linux phones and distributions, postmarketOS, environments like Phosh and Plasma Mobile, Ubuntu Touch, Sailfish, and so on. These can also end up being treated as a "third option" when it's a bunch of different options, or even treated as non-existent, but these options are out there, available, modern, with phones you could just buy. The only case where "one option" is actually just one option is with iPhones.

[jackstraw42]

Sorry, Google and Apple are American companies so "here" was the USA in my comment.

I agree completely with you about the Android forks. That does allow for people do things right more than the way Apple does it. But it also allows people to do things wrong, and how many predatory mobile phone companies would see an opportunity to spy on customers if they won't notice? Just like none of us would buy a computer and use it without formatting and reinstalling the OS first, there are tons of people who didn't reinstall the OS and kept installing shitty malware. That's the case that I'm worried is much more prevalent among the American population than we realized. Tons of factors go into it, but I think the fact that we distilled all of our information received regularly down to something that's processed thru two operating systems before reaching human eyes and ears is something worth looking more into. Or at least I think it's a damn good reason to start over and begin with doing things the right way, given everything that we know now.

[UnreachableCode]

GrapheneOS.

[jackstraw42]

This does look like the one from what I've read. Will definitely be giving it a try once I can afford to pick up a Pixel phone.

[yownie]

is revolut workable on it atm?

[dns_snek]

> I know they have insanely high and probably unreasonable standards for their app store

[2022] https://lifehacker.com/great-now-the-apple-app-store-has-mal...

[2022] https://www.darkreading.com/cyberattacks-data-breaches/malic...

[2024] Fraudulent LastPass-impersonating app allowed in App Store: https://blog.lastpass.com/posts/2024/02/warning-fraudulent-a...

[2024] "Scammed by the top result for 'Bitcoin wallet' in Apple App Store": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39685272

[2020] Scam subscriptions: https://blog.lockdownprivacy.com/2020/11/25/how-to-make-8000...

[2015] Thousands of malware-containing apps built using infected version of XCode slip through App Store review: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-34338362

[jackstraw42]

Quickly looked at all those links and without any more commentary from you, I guess I feel like my point stands.

Those all fall under the category of shitty apps I would never install on my iPhone or Android phone. So, Apple's privacy standards and policies, and walled gardens for better or worse, kept me closer to what I was looking for regarding personal privacy and security than I could have gotten with Android. Who knows if anyone checked those same apps I use to see if the Android versions are different or contain malware, but my sense is that it's much easier to slip it in the Play Store than Apple's App Store.

[rpdillon]

I think the point is that you're putting too much faith in App Store Review. App Store Review is neither necessary nor sufficient to protect you.

[jackstraw42]

Probably so. But still, I feel like Apple did a better job than Google did and I understand that’s an opinion and everyone has one.

[mcny]

One more example since you mentioned shitty apps...

https://old.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/672xcq/nytimes_how_u...

Uber did this and didn't get abruptly terminated from Apple developer program...

[happymellon]

Fdroid had none of these issues, Apple had lots of examples.

Walled garden - 0

3rd Party store - 1

> Apple's privacy standards and policies, and walled gardens for better or worse, kept me closer to what I was looking for regarding personal privacy and security

Apples privacy policy allowed bad actors into the App Store. Considering the levels of Kafkaesque pissing about we see reported on here from devs for non-issues, on a weekly basis, you should have a zero tolerance.

[lukan]

"What about kids?"

They usually have someone more mature watching over them as there are also other dangers in life except malware on their phones.

(Also, when I was a kid there was no one to explain me the internet, so I learned on my own and understood it better then those responsible for me.

But it was a different internet back then. )

[Imustaskforhelp]

Don't know about a mature but I wanted to play pokemon yellow on my mum's phone and I was in 2nd grade iirc and my brother just told me to search pokemon yellow rom myself and learn how to download/pirate it. He didn't help me at all, even though. he had pirated it earlier.

Made me learn pirating which went into more and more technical untill I think nowadays I dabble in playing pirated games in linux and linux scripting and just general coding.

There was no mature watching over me. I was downloading everything dude, heck I had once downloaded hollow knight as an apk to play it and I am pretty sure that it was a malware which i had quickly deleted as it wasn't working but now yes we've even migrated over from the phone.

So in a way my mature watching over me was saying, Idk learn it yourself, fuck around and find out.

I kinda think that grapheneos would be really nice for protecting your phone from something like malware from what I've heard.

[jackstraw42]

downloading ROMs helped me learn how to do things the right way too. but even back then those kinds of places were filled with traps, remember pop-ups and pop-under ads? from that point forward, learning how to safely download ROMs and whatever else I wanted to do on the internet just felt natural.

What worries me though is that maybe we weren't the norm, maybe we were the exceptions.

[Imustaskforhelp]

r/piracy was something that I discovered really late but I am glad I am.

I recommend it to every of my friend who comes to me begging me to download X or Y or pirate it.

I remember those links where you had to go through the entire article and it would give a (1 of 2) and you have to do that again and again for them to finally get to the final download.

Yes downloading them were indeed a hassle but idk i guess those feelings are really compensated by me playing pokemon, like I genuinely have forgotten some of those popups but I do know that they were really shitty.

here's what I would recommend anybody now:

r/piracy is your best friend, try to read it and prefer to get the goated version of things use brave browser if you don't want ads/ librewolf/firefox with ublock on pc.

I am not advocating piracy because well, I just can't pay for products and my frugal living doesn't really find it to have peace. I would much rather donate to them directly with a thank you message but maybe that's my ideal.

The only game I was thinking to buy was silksong but my brother has a ps5 and he would've had to download it seperately and I wanted to split even 20$ lol.

I wanted to buy silksong as a way of saying thank you to the devs for finally making things cheap enough and making me feel like my money is worth it even if I am frugal y'know.

I feel like everyone iscammed by 70$ games bro, I am never paying them.

One time, idk what i downloaded, but it was prob malware in the sense that even if no app is running/removed that app, it would still open up browser and open up some link automatically sometimes..

And pop ups on websites were a nightmare to dodge, pop under ads yeah. I remember it all now. it used to take me definitely 15 minutes or more to download a rom but that was compensated by the hours I used to play bro.

I love pokemon johto with my ampharos of level 75, it used to one shot everything except rock/steel. Electric was goated in johto. And I had a water type pokemon too/there was one fighting type move that I taught my ampharos. I think I even defeated red from gen 1 ( I am talking about the actual gen 2 pixelated game and not the next silver games, I think it was the crystal or silver or gold, I am not sure mareep was only available to play in one of these games and dude mareep is goated and makes me remember my childhood)

[stefan_]

Odd take. On iOS there is no F-Droid so your options for simple apps is the same ad riddled “in app purchases” crap it is on GPlay.

[jackstraw42]

Apple has made policy changes and changes to the app store to make it clearer which apps to avoid. Apple really cares about my privacy, or they tell me they do and I believe them. I think they do because they know how important brand loyalty is to their customers. It's pretty much the thing Apple lives on, never losing the customer's trust. Google clearly leaves it more or less up to nature.

[UnreachableCode]

>Apple really cares about my privacy, or they tell me they do and I believe them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM

[jackstraw42]

I am aware. I've been around a while.

I'm not worried about nation-state surveillance. What I am worried about is all the keyloggers on kids' Android phones these days, since I've seen a shady game company or two in my day.

[dzikimarian]

What keyloggers? That would have to be keyboard replacement. Which is highly unlikely and can happen on ios as well.

[jackstraw42]

My impression is that the very first thing a privacy-conscious person would do with a new Android device is install a secure keyboard. Is that not the case? Why should people trust any old software keyboard the company selling it sets as the default?

For a very long time, Apple didn't allow installing custom keyboards. And I would still bet a bit of money that they are more restrictive than the keyboards Android allows.

[codedokode]

What valuable info can one get from a kid's phone?

[jackstraw42]

I'd rather not speculate on that, surely you understand? I'm not saying a general "save the children" but would you consider thinking of them, if that doesn't sound too trite?

[shakna]

And yet, SparkCat ran around on the iOS store for at least a year. [0]

[0] https://www.tomsguide.com/computing/malware-adware/malicious...

[jackstraw42]

I'm sure there are lots more, too. There's no way Apple kept a complete hold on this.

[Imustaskforhelp]

To be honest, Apple lives on their walled ecosystem and people fanboying them.

I am sure that you aren't a fanboy but I would be skeptical of any company saying that they value about your privacy when the recent debacle went on.

Like hear me out, Apple encryption was being backdoored and the only reason that it got leaked was by a whistleblower and it was illegal for apple to even discuss it.

So chances are, that if that whistleblower hadn't leaked, I am not sure if he's facing jail time or not and if Apple wanted to live in the UK which I am sure they are, then they most likely would've enforced a backdoor.

Would we be any better knowing it? Like when a company's profits incentives is affected because a country wants them to have a backdoor in secret closed doors and not even reveal to the public...

I wonder how many other backdoors there are that we just don't know of y'know.

So I wouldn't say that they care about your privacy. They show that they care about your privacy because that's become a USP to them and quite frankly, after this whole scene, I am not sure how they can prove that back.

The only thing that's literally not tracking you is open source for the most part. That is the only thing and f-droid takes open source apps.

There are even games on f-droid but yes I know that games are just a weird niche which has a lot of malware/exploitative. I hope that more people can create open source games and we can contribute to them along the way.

Whenever, there is a company involved, Deep down, they care about themselves and not you, they really care about the shareholders,everything else is temporary imo.

But there are some companies run by people who have a moral spine and we need to applaud them/use them but in my opinion apple is too big to have a moral spine when they can repackage the same Iphone for god knows how long, but they are still better than google whose literally an ad company but open source graphene os with f-droid is a better option and you are showing a false dichotomy of sorts.

I hope that I can point you into better direction with graphene os + f-droid, both are open source and they are the only one I would sort of trust with my privacy because its code and the code is generally neutral, it has no incentives to sell me anything most of the times yknow. It is like clippy of sorts lol.

[jackstraw42]

Listen, I don't disagree with any of that. I think a lot of confusion is happening because people think I'm talking about how to inform consumer choices better or what exactly about either OS to fix to make them meet the standards that I'm trying to describe. What I think is very important if not one of the most important things facing us as a species is that we need a better mobile OS option than what we have. And you don't have to convince me on GrapheneOS. I am in the process of moving to Android and F-Droid until I can afford a Pixel phone with GrapheneOS.

What I am attempting and apparently failing to describe effectively is that this excellent option we have now (GrapheneOS + F-Droid) was in NO way accessible to any general user of mobile phones since their use has become widespread. What we have had since 2008 is two shitty options, and my point was that Apple has actively done more to keep users safe than Google has. No one seems to be arguing on that at all, but there are many people pointing out the failing of Apple's efforts over the years. Does that make them a complete failure? Absolutely not in my eyes, but I'm not going to tell you what to think.

So, I feel like Android's ecosystem set us up for a HUGE minefield from various entry points from an American's perspective by allowing such an open system into the wild. It has been Early Access level of quality up until recently I would argue. GrapheneOS + F-Droid is safe enough to protect idiots from themselves, probably. If not now, then with time.

How in the world anyone here is saying Google's hands-off approach was the way to go... well it is how we got our acceptable option, finally, but surely you don't think that every mobile phone company with a custom fork of Android kept its users more safe than Apple did?

[Imustaskforhelp]

Hm that is a fair argument in the sense that I also wish to move forward to graphene but I got a shitty redmi phone which barely works but it still has f-droid and I also want to move forward to graphene as I said.

I mean, yes, graphene is fairly recent getting traction and I can understand why you felt that apple did a better job at saving the end user than google did.

That is partially because imo google is essentially an ads company and there are lots of ads of spyware/malware that google does nothing about and also they are esssentially spying on you yourself for selling ads.

Apple takes a more on hardware approach in the sense that they don't want to spy on you as much because they have less incentives to do so because they don't have an advertisement system aaas much as google y'know, so they definitely took a bite at apple = privacy which has worked for many people.

Google bought android and android was always an open system and it had both its pros and cons. There is also an open system of marketplace called aptoid which was literally apt + android but it also might have malware sometimes and f-droid is the best option for most use cases.

Apple had never really had an open system and it had both its pros and cons and google is seemingly shifting into it which is like a nightmare because now we have very less choices of sorts.

And android has sort of innovated/transitioned into grapheneos for general public privacy imo.

So, yes I do think that we are in agreement that grapheneos is now here to stay and I can understand why you atleast appreciated apple for not being as privacy invading as google for some time which you were pointing out

We are in unison, I agree with your points. Its just that I thought that you were just fanboying over apple for the sake of it in the original comment and glad we understood each other points as really we are talking about the same thing and agreeing at essentially everything.

Thanks for explaining your original comment better through this comment and have a nice day.

[jackstraw42]

Thank you for taking the time to write your comment, too. I think it's extremely important that all sides of communication come together ASAP and discuss most of the things that might have been very polarizing in our near past. For the sake of not just our country (speaking to fellow Americans here) but humanity overall.

[d3Xt3r]

The topic of kids is a whole another debate - whether or not it is wise to give them an Internet-connected device - beause the same general concerns regarding the Internet exist on iOS as well.

Regardless, if I had to give them a device, it'll definitely be a Linux-based one.

[vasco]

Billions of people use android phones without malware, you are exagerating slightly.

[conartist6]

I had never seen Android malware until my mom showed me her phone. I think she's barely ever installed an app on purpose in her life, but there it was this malware that looked like the husk of a legit app repurposed to show banner ads after every phone call

[beAbU]

My MIL has an ungoogled huawei phone. She was trying to get some app and family told her she needs to get the play store to get the app.

Holy fucking shit. What a hive of scum and villany you encounter when searching for the play store. The first link on google launches a full screen PWA that looks _exactly_ like the play store. It took me a hot minute to realize that I was about to install something unsavoury. I almost wanted to dunk the phone in some bleach.

I'm an android user, and I prefer it over iPhone, but the surface area for attacks is way way way too large. Users who are less technically inclined are so damn vulnerable. I don't know how to fix this.

[MSFT_Edging]

When I bought an ipad a few years back, it had been at least 10 years since I was on the ios ecosystem(last iphone was the 3gs). I was shocked how hard it was to find what I was looking for. Instead of the Playstore minefield of free spyware apps, you now have cheap knockoffs, likely still spyware, but now everything costs $5 dollars.

I think there's two different sets of perverse incentives. On the apple side, it's how to trick you into a "small" purchase of 5 dollars. It's just a cup of coffee man, c'mon just a coffee. Essentially banking on some user will just add it to their apple tab for convenience.

On the android side, the expectation is primarily free apps, with paid generally being a premium app. There are some free apps that just do what they say, typically small side hustles from solo devs banking on some add revenue with the option to upgrade(Shout out to GoneMadMusicPlayer, paid for it back in 2013 and the devi is still out there supporting and responding to emails). If they're not that, they'll be spyware infested trap holes.

Fdroid is typically where I go when I'm looking for an app with a unix philosophy. Just do one thing simply. Voice recorder, guitar tuner, etc.

[jackstraw42]

this is what I'm talking about. I wish more folks in this thread had gone this direction.

I think those types of people like your MIL represent a very concerning bulk of Android users. So people are walking around with god knows what in their pockets, doing every single thing in their life through them these days. I thought others who had arrived at this thought would be alarmed too, but I'm not sure what to think anymore I guess.

[array_key_first]

Depends on your definition of malware.

If you consider adware to be malware, which I personally do, then I would estimate close to zero Android phones are operating without malware.

[jackstraw42]

I don't really see how you can guarantee your Android phone doesn't have malware, I feel like you may be exaggerating here.

I also don't mind the downvote, but if you would please tell me how you are able to guarantee your Android phone doesn't have malware, please tell me instead of hiding behind a downvote. Otherwise my solution is don't use an Android device.

wow, downvotes on all three comments! thanks, stranger.

[user_7832]

> I don't really see how you can guarantee your Android phone doesn't have malware, I feel like you may be exaggerating here.

Can you do it on an iPhone? (You can't.)

Between android and ios, which platform is considered more secure or safer? It's not easy to find out directly, but bug bounty programs can be used as a heuristic. Guess which one it is, after both being the same for a long time? (It's android).

You can check out https://www.wired.com/story/android-zero-day-more-than-ios-z... and https://cyberscoop.com/ios-zero-day-zerodium-high-supply/

> I also don't mind the downvote, but if you would please tell me how you are able to guarantee your Android phone doesn't have malware, please tell me instead of hiding behind a downvote. Otherwise my solution is don't use an Android device.

The same way you guarantee it on any other OS, be it windows or macos or linux. You do your best, don't download sketchy apps, and don't be a political figure. Of course that doesn't guarantee it, just makes it 99% likely.

> Otherwise my solution is don't use an Android device.

Do you think you can guarantee this on an iPhone? May I ask you how you are able to guarantee this on iOS?

(I haven't downvoted you)

[jackstraw42]

I haven't said anything about Apple guaranteeing this, I just am saying that Apple seems more trustworthy to me. And unless you can prove Android is actually better, then I still believe that. I feel like people are misunderstanding my original post.

You would probably not be surprised that I would still trust a heavily regulated government that's occasionally broken rather than one that's run in a totally free market by all varieties of selfish interests.

[AnthonyMouse]

It seems like you're missing the most important part.

If you had to rank app stores by probability of malware, the lowest probability would be F-Droid. After that it might reasonably be Apple followed by Google Play.

But F-Droid isn't available on iOS, so if you want to use the app store with the lowest probability of malware, it's only available on Android. And more to the point, the safest app store is available on Android only because Android has third party app stores.

To have a single store to the exclusion of all others, that store has to be a big tent, and big tents get full of clowns.

[jackstraw42]

No, I feel like rather you are misunderstanding my main point.

I do understand that I am stuck with the Apple equivalent of the Google Play Store. Android is more like a completely open ecosystem, Apple's is much more closed filled with walled gardens. Still, walls provide protection if the ones building them know what they're doing.

So, I feel like Apple has the edge with what we have, over Google's stance of "do nothing" rather than trying to give users a good sense of privacy. If Apple were fully open and allowed such a thing as F-Droid to exist on their OS, you would have a point.

edit: and both OSes are not perfect. That was also part of my main point, not that Apple's is clearly far superior. All I said was I'm glad I trusted my instincts and explained why.

last edit: I've read back the comments to try and see where the misunderstandings are coming from and hopefully have addressed them. While the most secure App Store does exist on Android, it's taken us a while to get there (I know F-Droid has been around a while as well). I am talking about the time period since very early Android and iOS up until now. If I had been using Android, no doubt I would have tried to do it the proper way, but knowing what I like to do freely on my mobile device instead of feeling like I need to worry about privacy with every. single. app. I pick iOS for my mobile OS from 2008-2025 again and I am glad that I did. None of the exploits, vulnerabilities, etc have affected me and I have to give Apple the credit for at least giving me my money's worth on that.

[user_7832]

> I just am saying that Apple seems more trustworthy to me. And unless you can prove Android is actually better, then I still believe that.

And I say, windows XP seems more trustworthy to me. Fewer vectors to attack than the latest windows 11, it's the best! And I believe that.

How is this any different from your argument? You are not even providing a reason for your source of belief.

[jackstraw42]

So everyone really did read what I was saying as an argument. Maybe you can help me here and clarify what you interpreted as a point I was trying to argue? I believe that it was a better decision for the average mobile phone user to use iOS in a smart way between 2008-2025 than Android. Both ecosystems are in a sad state currently, but Android is the clear choice now. Did you think I was making the old iOS vs. Android debate? People really need to move on from that winning side thinking and think more about what matters, if that's what happened. Anyone care about talking about anything else besides that shit anymore?

[rpdillon]

You're getting down-voted because you're structuring the argument in an unwinnable way, and I think you know that. None of us can prove that any phone doesn't have malware. Seems like you're arguing in bad faith.

[jackstraw42]

the thing is, I didn't mean to argue. I'm merely responding to people's comments, who started an argument?

I am very, very concerned about our ability to communicate with each other as human beings these days. Maybe this thread was meant to be an example of that, I don't know. I didn't realize everyone was trying to prove me wrong with this. sheesh.

further, I am seeing why some folks decided to close themselves off completely to stuff like this. I enjoy intellectual curiosity and try to find others who do, but I realize many people don't enjoy it and many even hate it. it's not because it's a lack of intelligence. It's that everyone seems uninterested in the thoughts that made me type that initial comment, they're more concerned with proving me wrong. Am I accurate in this assessment, or can I trust you to not treat this question as an argument, if that is a better way to put it?

[singpolyma3]

I guarantee no malware by using fdroid

[ImJamal]

Fdroid just checks there is no proprietary code and compiles. They don't do any review. You are completely reliant on the app not being malicious.

[singpolyma3]

Not true :) they review for antifeatures etc

[vasco]

I didn't downvote you, and it's against the rules to focus on the voting anyway.

[jackstraw42]

Ok, thanks for saying that I guess. FYI I wasn't talking directly to you on the second line.