[rkomorn]

The older I get the more I find boss fights off putting.

I get literally zero satisfaction out of learning whatever pattern you have to learn to perform whatever correct action, at the correct time, you need to defeat a particular boss.

It's just a time consuming chore.

Edit: the "boss" escape sequences in the Ori games were also entirely frustrating and and unsatisfying to me.

[Balinares]

I had a sobering experience with one of the Hollow Knight optional bosses, Nightmare King Grimm.

After a few tries, and getting demolished in a few seconds by its relentless onslaught of attacks that span much of the screen, I realized that I'm simply too old and too slow to beat this boss. No regrets, I've had a great run -- my gaming life started back in the days of analog TV Pong "consoles". But my reflexes just aren't what they once were; and there was a boss simply beyond my physical capabilities. So it goes.

To Hollow Knight's eternal credit, I just kept at it because the fight was so engrossing. There was a borderline meditative quality to it. The speed, the relentlessness. The rhythm of it. Sometimes I would just not fight back, only dodge and see how long I could last.

One time, confusingly, the boss started doing a move I had never seen before. Bosses aren't supposed to do that, right? They've got patterns and phases, they don't spawn new moves out of nowhere.

Yeah, so that was its death animation. I won and I never even realized I was winning.

Later another DLC added a boss challenge area where you can re-fight Nightmare King Grimm with only one hit point. You get hit once, you lose.

It took me two or three tries, tops.

Hollow Knight will always remain very special to me for having a higher opinion of what I can achieve than I did myself, and proving to me it was right about it.

(EDIT: Oh hey didn't even notice your username. Hi dude!)

[rkomorn]

Sun?!

[Balinares]

The very same. XD Hope you've been okay, it's been a while!

[rkomorn]

Well what are the odds! :D I'm good!

[zwnow]

I agree. I used to play Path of Exile a lot, recently joined the new league in Path of Exile 2 and the balancing is so bad you have to play a particular build to beat the campaign in a reasonable time. In a game that is all about build versatility...

Common responses from the playerbase: skill issue, build issue, etc. While the game clearly has a balancing issue (which is fair considering its not at v1.0 yet). Bosses should not outregenerate your damage. 90% of the playerbase is playing the same build.

Its just not fun following a particular guide just to play with the highest efficiency possible. What makes videogames fun to me (especially action rpgs) is the ability to make my own build.

Its also the reason why I do not play any multi-player games anymore. There are barely people who play for fun, everyone just wants to win win win.

[rkomorn]

I'm an unashamed, unabashed, could-not-care-less "casual" when it comes to games, which definitely shows up even more in multiplayer.

I played Minecraft with some online friends and I was off messing around, exploring, and doing nothing worthwhile, and got back to "base" where they had like.. monster farms and stuff?! Because they were trying to finish the newly released IDK.. expansion, ASAP?

It was a very clear "oh you and I are not here for the same reason" moment. :D

[kartoffelsaft]

I've found the way minecraft has evolved over the past 14 years to be unsatisfying for this reason. Most of the games systems feel like they exist for the purpose of being exploited, and the rest of the systems encorage the player to interact with the former.

As an example, if I want to go exploring, I'm thinking I'm going to want food, so I'll want crops either to eat them directly or to breed livestock. If I want to do that in a way that doesn't require waiting I'll need bone meal. But at some point they changed it so you require more bone meal to fully grow. And now the game has funneled me into building a mob grinder when I actually wanted to explore.

Sure, there are mobs out there you can fight who drop those items, and that's more engaging, but "fun" and "effective" are so misaligned in the game currently that I find myself avoiding it. So much so that I end up mostly either playing really old versions that aren't this way (b1.7.3 in particular) or modpacks that do a better job of this kind of progression.

[rkomorn]

Yes! I also kind of hate feeling like I have to cheese the game to make progress at a reasonable speed.

BUT, I will say I do get a kick out of seeing the strategies and workarounds other people find that I would never even have bothered to try looking for.

Maybe I'm just lazy, or maybe I just feel like there's a way the game's meant to be played, and that's what I want to play. I'm also pretty allergic to games that make extensive uses of mods for the same reason.

[zwnow]

Haha I barely touched the nether in Minecraft, still had a blast with my friends. Unfortunately nowadays they exclusively play competitive games so I can not join them anymore...

[andrewingram]

I also found the escape sequences in Ori to not be much fun at all. Though when I replayed both games a couple of months ago, somehow I did the sandworm on my first attempt -- which was a huge relief because that one induced so much rage on my first playthrough.

[npteljes]

Same for me. I appreciate stories and standard gameplay loops more than bossfights.

I did stumble upon a game where I enjoy the bossfights though - in V Rising. There is a TON of bosses in the game, but the game is so full of quality of life stuff that even dying repeatedly is not a big deal.

I generally dislike when my time is a stake in the game. I have so little of it in the first place, I don't like risking it in this way.

[RDaneel0livaw]

I'll echo how good V Rising is. I don't even like this entire genre (base building grindy survival), but I had a blast in this game. I eventually gave up when managing my castle became too much of an annoying chore (omg I have to tear everything down and rebuild it all AGAIN because now I don't have enough space in the required room to place this new crafting bench or whatever ... OMG PLEASE NO) but the world exploration and combat and bosses was always super fun. I also loved how they allowed the player to scale the difficulty however they wanted. I wound up turning my game into "baby" mode by cranking the boss difficulty down just because I didn't want to keep replaying the bosses in my limited time. Had a blast!

[npteljes]

Yeah, I play with my friend and we had good luck with the castle placement. First castle was of course in the first zone, and when we proceeded into the second, we settled in basically the very center of the map, a bit toward the top. That turned out to be a fine location, as on horseback, nothing was too far. Castle size as well, initially I built is to just fit the existing infra, but when I sensed that there are going to be additions, I built it a bit larger than it needed to be, and now we can fit everything, especially with the little in-house teleports.

I totally feel your way of beating the game on normal, and the bosses on easy. I did that with Persona 5 at points, and Unicorn Overlord as well. I really appreciate that games provide this option.

[rkomorn]

Well crud, two recommendations? This is starting to feel compelling. Onto my wishlist it goes.

I solo'd my way through all the available Sunkenland content a few months ago so base building grindy survival is probably kind of my jam.

[YurgenJurgensen]

It’s interesting how many people with little time still manage to make time to comment on how little time they have in news article comment threads.

[npteljes]

It all hinges the many interpretations of "time". For example, this comment takes 5 minutes from me, during a transition between two larger tasks. The gaming I described though is different. I don't even start a game if I don't have at least an hour or so.

Also, people often mean "energy" or "willpower" by "time". It's like a general, non-material cost of things. "I don't have the time for X" can many times be translated to "I can't imagine managing another context", "I don't want to commit to X", "I can't be assed to start doing X after everything I do in a day", etc. Time in these context is just a convenient scapegoat. This is also addressed by the idea “It’s not about “having” time. It’s about making time.”. For what they really want, people seem to "make time" for, even in the busiest schedules.

[rkomorn]

Yeah. Although maybe I can't say my time is that precious because I'm somehow pretty happy to grind through hours of quests.

Heck, I even seem to like job-like games (Hardspace Shipbreaker was amazing to me).

I guess the "if you don't pass this, start over!" aspect of boss fights is the thing that irks me.

[npteljes]

Yeah... you're right. Ultimately it's not that my time is precious, it's that I get no satisfaction of beating a boss. I hate how overpowered are with scripted stuff, for example, and how they break most game mechanics introduced so far. And so, my time spent seems to be wasted.

Looking at how other people describe their experience, it seems like the figuring out part brings them joy. I usually have that with the core game mechanics themselves. The "knowledge" I get seems useful here, because I get to apply it to the rest of the game, but learning the boss mechanics seems like a throwaway thing, and I think this bothers me.

I also don't enjoy replaying parts of the game, especially as a punishment, especially when the replayed part had nothing to do with the my failure itself - like clearing the trash before a boss, or replaying parts of the bossfight before the crucial part, or getting back to the boss' place from a checkpoint. Such a slog!

[bccdee]

> Looking at how other people describe their experience, it seems like the figuring out part brings them joy

It's the pleasure of mastery. To me, the fun of a challenge like that is in gradually mastering something difficult and then being able to perform it perfectly. In fact, I'm sometimes a bit disappointed by the way that a boss fight ends when you get it right. The feeling of getting it right is my reward for the work I've put in, and I want that feeling to be drawn out. This is why I don't mind dying and restarting, at least in a good boss fight. The experience of being in the fight feels good and only gets better. That's why these games are rewarding to replay. It's like you're playing the hits or something.

My favourite boss fights are from Sekiro—there's a nice little video about it here¹ if you're interested in what other people love so much about tough boss fights.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W4li9yfY3o

[npteljes]

The video moved something in me. I feel I hate being put down a bit too much. (Being made feel stupid, small, inadequate). I mostly counter this not by facing the problem itself, but by overpowering myself in another context - in games, via gear or levels. After winning these battles I don't feel victorious, I feel like I finally got away.

Thanks for sharing your perspective, I really appreciate it.

[rkomorn]

I think we are 100% on the same page, but I wanna share one last pet peeve for the road. :D

You beat the boss! BUT WAIT!!! It's not actually dead!

And then you say "wow, no way!" ironically as you watch its health bar refill.

Who could ever have expected this?!

[npteljes]

Yeah, I hate that shit as well. It's one of the reasons why I feel no satisfaction after beating a boss. I had so many experiences where they have pulled a "Somehow, Palpatine returned" that I just don't trust the happiness sequence that usually follows a bossfight.

[Insanity]

Yeah.. I've actually stopped playing games because of boss fights. In fairness, I generally don't like Single Player games, so the threshold for me to just quit one is actually pretty low, but an annoying Boss Fight is a surefire way to do so.

I played through Cyberpunk, and for each boss fight I just flipped the difficulty to the easiest possible setting. It's just not fun to me.

EDIT: apart from the bossfights in Cyberpunk, I actually did enjoy the game. Took me about 6 months to finish it though lol. (no DLC, and started about a year ago so when it was actually stable & playable).

[whatevaa]

Yeah, boss fights in Cyberpunk didn't even fit the vibe. Kinda forced in.

[scrollaway]

Your post could be reworded to talk about learning just any musical instrument.

[rkomorn]

I think learning to play a musical instrument would actually give me more satisfaction because it would open more doors towards creativity.

But it's all personal of course. :) Some people like boss fights (or Souls-like games) and I'm happy for them.

I just would be happy with a "bypass this" button.

[BalinKing]

I disagree, because with an instrument you actually get music out at the end, which is enjoyable in its own right on top of the satisfaction of executing the technical challenge of playing it. A more akin analogy, in my opinion, would be “any musical instrument which has been artificially muted”—this could definitely still be fun, and indeed I’ve played my keyboard without sound before, but it really doesn’t compare.

[bccdee]

A better analogy than music might be dance: The reward for dancing well is simply the feeling of dancing well. In a properly-designed game, the game feel of successfully completing the technical challenge is itself the reward. A dance that feels unpleasant probably won't be performed recreationally, and a game that doesn't feel fun to succeed at won't see much play.

[simoncion]

> I disagree, because with an instrument you actually get music out at the end...

You've clearly never heard me playing my horns!

I never found the end result of all that practice to be rewarding (as the kids seem to say these days), [0] and -brother- I tried for years and years. So, I switched hobbies to video games and have a leisure-time activity that I like a lot more.

[0] Those unfortunate enough to be within earshot were usually fairly unimpressed with the result, so this isn't just me shittalking myself.

[vunderba]

I grew up in the era of boss rush segments towards the end of a game to add filler and absolutely hated them.

FWIW, I'm also much bigger fan of difficult levels over difficult bosses.

I also think that the level of perceived difficulty depending on the player plays a large part in the enjoyment. When I play a video game, I'm also imagining that I'm actually that character so every death essentially means that I was defeated in that world for real.

I absolutely hate games where one of the win conditions is to be forced to die numerous times to discover an otherwise inscrutable pattern.

[boppo1]

I felt this way two days & 2 hours of playtime ago. Now I'm a bit better with the controls, beat lace & am using hunter's march to farm rosaries.

I think I'd be bored if it were easier. I don't want to 'press A to win'.

[rkomorn]

> I don't want to 'press A to win'.

I get that! (Edit: I mean this enthusiastically, like, I relate :) )

I think the point is, for me (and it looks like some others in the thread), beating bosses doesn't feel like "winning", it feels like completing a chore.

For me, for example, the part that feels like winning (in games in general) is stuff like investing the time to travel through all the areas of a game, completing many if not all the side quests, grinding to get to max level and/or earning all the best equipment, etc.

But learning the specific way to beat this one boss (often in a way that doesn't matter for the rest of the game because it's based on some timing or animation specific to that boss)? Yeah, that's a chore.