[atsushin]

There was a pretty good Kurzgesagt video posted earlier today on alcohol in general: https://youtu.be/aOwmt39L2IQ

The shift in perception of alcohol is certainly a good sign. Even outside of the health benefits, a night out at the bar is expensive now (at least on the East Coast) and honestly speaking other drugs are simply more cost-effective. I still have the occasional cocktail when going out with friends but now that I'm focused more on my overall fitness I find less of a reason to drink now. Still love the vibe of bars and pubs though.

Anecdotally knowing that club drugs like ketamine and 2c-b are gaining popularity, I wonder whether young people may be turning onto substances like those now or if in general Gen-Z prefers to abstain entirely.

[chiffre01]

Anecdotally it seems like alcohol is being replaced with weed or other things. But it doesn't bode well for the future of mental health if social drinking is being replaced with solo drug use or just solo everything.

[thewebguyd]

> being replaced with solo drug use or just solo everything.

Solo everything is definitely happening. People are getting priced out, and the third place (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place) has pretty much disappeared everywhere.

Gen Z is considered the loneliest generation, and its easy to see why. COVID messed things up too, and there's a lot of kids and young adults that have not been properly socialized.

And since you have to spend, increasingly large amounts, of money just to go out with friends, people will just stay home instead. Maybe that looks like chatting on discord while playing a game together, but increasingly its looking like solo activities.

[darth_avocado]

> people are getting priced out

Alcohol is still cheaper than pretty much all the substances that are replacing it and you don’t need to go to a bar to have it. You can get 30 rack for about $20 and hang out in a park with your buddies to finish it.

[throwawa5]

> Alcohol is still cheaper than pretty much all the substances that are replacing it

A hit of acid costs $10 and lasts for 12 hours. A 5-10mg THC edible costs around $5, maybe a bit less, and lasts for 4-6 hours. A small dose of mushrooms (500mg-1g), about the same as the edible. Little to no hangover from all of the above unless you go really hard.

(Ketamine is an exception here, unless you keep your use infrequent the steep tolerance curve will cause your costs to blow up quickly.)

Meanwhile, a pint in a major US city costs like $10 with tax + tip and lasts for what, an hour? Wine or a decent cocktail cost even more.

Seems like other substances offer the better deal here if you're looking at pure cost per hour of active effects. If you consider health effects, they win out on that score too, assuming no underlying mental health diagnoses.

[moregrist]

> Meanwhile, a pint in a major US city costs like $10 with tax + tip and lasts for what, an hour?

That’s a feature, not a bug. When I want a drink or two, I like to know that I’ll be pretty much sober in 1-2 hours and can drive or do whatever.

Setting aside 4-12 hours of time for recreational drug use is a commitment. You’re basically setting aside somewhere between a whole evening to a half day. If you time it wrong, you’re not even sober by morning.

[throwawa5]

Don't get me wrong, I'm a social drinker and think drinking has its place. But if cost is the main consideration other substances are likely to win out. Just like how a good AAA game is better value for money than a movie, but can never fully replace the moviegoing experience.

[comte7092]

You can get an ounce of weed for $20 in Oregon right now.

For reference, that will get you and your friends absolutely blasted for way more than a single evening.

[laughing_man]

Public alcohol consumption is pretty much banned where I live. If you go to the park and pop the top on a beer you'll get cited.

[TheAlchemist]

Exactly this !

I'm not advocating for more alcohol consumption, coming from a Eastern European country I've seen my fair share of what alcoholism can do to people.

However, it feels like there are 2 trends, none of which is good from my perspective. First one is what you mention - replacing social activities with solo ones. Second one is overprotecting kids, young adults and everybody in general. Kids in many modern countries are glued to phones and screens in part because their parents or schools don't let them to just go find something to do outside. Let them play on their own - yes it can be dangerous, but if they break an arm or a leg, so be it. They will be fine within a month.

[atsushin]

The lack of IRL 'third places' for young people to meet locally will only exacerbate the issue -- and probably should bear most of the blame. The car-centric infrastructure of the suburbs (well, the vast majority of America) encourages isolation and asocial behavior. It really sucks that for some, their lives will never go beyond that invisible cage.

[_DeadFred_]

When I was young we lived just as spread out. We just biked/skateboarded to places. We stashed our surf boards at the closest house to the beach. We made third spaces happen.

Why has that stopped being an option? Is it because people's parents are too scared to let them do it when they are young (we were taking public busses to downtown Santa Cruz in junior high but we were latch key 80s/90s kids with zero oversite) and so they don't realize it's an option when they are older or?

[xp84]

You might be on to something. And if you consider that the generation that's 22 -- near peak "going out" age in the old days, was in COVID lockdown during that late high school period, which for me was a huge spike in how much time I spent away from my house. That was on top of the "constant supervision and scheduled activities" regime that took over right about the time the oldest GenZ-ers hit late elementary years, and the smartphones and tablets that hit as that cohort hit their teens.

Gen X really ruined their kids in the name of safety. I don't blame Gen Z one bit, they really never had a chance at a healthy social life.

[pixelatedindex]

I think it’s because at that time if you wanted to socialize you didn’t have an option. Kids these days have phones and tablets and finding another person to engage with online has substituted the going out part.

[DANmode]

Because not everyone is born into, or lives in, beach culture.

that'll be the reason in most cases.

[_DeadFred_]

Why does it have to be beach culture? Where I live now we have:

Mountain hiking/biking trails started from the outskirts of town. Parks within town. A downtown with parks and a lake front park with swimming, volleyball, basketball, lakefront trails, small food concessions. A city skate/bike park. City tennis courts. City basketball courts. A walking/biking trail that runs from one edge of town to another, ending in a mountain biking/hiking trail system.

All of these things are way way under utilized compared to 10 years ago even though the youth population has grown. They used to be packed. Only thing busy is the library, I suspect because it has wifi/computers/gaming computers/air conditioning but it's still only like 20-30 people.

I rarely see anyone under 40 on the mountain hiking/biking trails. Ski mountain/biking has 20 somethings but most cars are from out of town. Parks are practically empty. Mainly moms and young children. I don't go to the waterfront park so no idea, but downtown I hardly see people heading down there/coming back where before it was a constant stream. Skate park is a few parents with young kids. Tennis courts are mainly 50+. Basketball courts are empty. Bike path is mainly 40+. Town seems deserted at this point, it's wild.

We have a used bike shop with basically 'donation' bikes that are $50 and have new tires, brakes, tuned up ready to go, so I don't think it's accessibility.

I guess most of these things are aged out things, where the group that did them is now 40+, but younger groups complaining about no third spaces there are a ton they just aren't used.

[DANmode]

Okay, a well-resourced town,

with public spaces and resources, then.

Where I am, people raised holy hell about e.g. a skatepark being built.

[aaronbaugher]

My town still has quite a few third places (the mall, bowling alleys, bars, etc.) and even some new ones like a trampoline place. Most of them are struggling because the young people don't go out. Go into a corner bar on a Saturday night, and you'll see more people in their 50s than 20s. The pool league that used to run 6 divisions a week is now down to 2.

So as far as I can tell, people (especially the young) stopped going out, and then third places started going away.

[Gigachad]

I just went a looked up my closest bowling alley. 4 people, 2 games mid day Saturday and it was $180 AUD.

It’s not surprising a large chunk of Gen Z are choosing to stay at home when it costs that much to go out. I'm starting to think we as a society need to start subsidising social spaces. Local council owned/run bouldering gyms, meetup spaces, etc. Charging a bellow market rate fee just to get people out of the house.

[remarkEon]

I don't get this (very common) perspective that the 'burbs encourage isolation and asocial behavior. My experience growing up (born in Iowa, grew up in Minnesota) is really the opposite. I lived in the city but had plenty of friends in the Suburbs (Minnetonka, Edina, Eden Prairie, etc etc) and whenever I'd go over there for a sleep over or something we could wander around the neighborhood like our own little platoon completely unbothered and safe. Running across everyone's lawns, climbing the neighbor's trees, as long as we were home by dinner time.

Maybe you mean for single adults? That's definitely more true, but if you are a single adult you're living in the suburbs for cost reasons, right? Zooming out to see how things would've worked for Gen Z, then yes I could agree that the suburbs were "isolating" during covid. But so were the cities, in fact way more so.

Anyway, loved the suburbs when I was a kid. They're still great today.

[littlexsparkee]

Comes down to the execution I would think. I've lived in well-planned suburbs like South Pasadena with tree-lined streets, easy to bike, restaurants nearby but there are many where you need a car to get anywhere, maybe weaker social cohesion, etc that can be alienating.

[laughing_man]

The suburbs used to have a lot of those kinds of places. Car-centric infrastructure is not the problem. People used to go to church, join bowling leagues, spend Sundays in the park, etc.

I blame the internet. There just isn't much demand for couples to leave the house anymore with the world's entertainment at their fingertips. When the rest of society stays home, it becomes more expensive for those young, single people to support public spaces.

[marssaxman]

That was never the suburbs I grew up in. You had to drive to go anywhere, and it was spectacularly lonely. I've spent my whole adult life avoiding such places.

[RhysU]

Long ago, if you had to drive to go anywhere, your house must have been surrounded by oodles of other houses and hence friends existed to hang out with before some friend could drive. Once someone could drive, the friend crew was good to venture elsewhere.

The problem today is the nanny states don't allow a 16-year-old to transport other kids in their car until many hoops are cleared. We collectively decided that such social/transportation kneecapping was riskier than having our kids be lame during their sophomore/junior year of high school in the suburbs.

[yahway]

>car-centric encourages isolation Not in the slightest, in fact, growing up and just driving around when younger was exactly the peak of socialization. Being in a 15-minute city as a young adult would be horrifying, being exposed to the rampant crime, violent assaults and homeless open air drug use. You got it backwards my man. The proof is in the pudding.

[taeric]

Yeah, I have a hard time thinking this is specifically a good thing. A better relationship with drinking is not something to argue against, of course. But I find the dysfunction in so many people that take a strong stance against it rather hard to ignore, as well.

[stikypad]

TFA says the same surveys indicate that alcohol is not being replaced by marijuana use.

[silisili]

Everything is being replaced with solo everything. I know so many young Millennials and Z'ers who quite literally never leave the house. They're content with Doordash and their phones for media.

This is what corporations want. Lonely people are constant eyeballs . But this can't be good for society as a whole.

[epolanski]

I think you have a point. While I drink mostly in company, and rarely if ever alone, I do consume weed mostly alone.

Also, as it makes me tired, it also makes me less incline to go out and meet people.

Those, and other reasons generally push me against consuming it more than few times an year.

[calmbonsai]

I guess I'm odd in that I enjoy alcohol both ways.

I love a good novel paired with a whisky for an solo evening in, pints with 'da boyz at the pub, and food & winery tours with couples and friends.

[weinzierl]

Quite to the contrary. A big part of alcohol use is group pressure. Much better for everyone if people enjoy their drugs alone.

[sillyfluke]

Yeah my guess is that this stat won't survive a booming economy. Younger generations are social drinkers and they are skipping drinks when eating out and going out less in general since they're cash strapped.

So it's meaningless in this regard, but the stat might still be useful in showing just how fucked the economy truly is.

[OkayPhysicist]

The entire upside of alcohol use is social lubrication. Frankly, I think our society could benefit from a bit more peer pressure.

[littlexsparkee]

You can get the social upside with adaptogens which are increasingly showing up in canned drinks or drinking kava with friends. Alcohol doesn't have a monopoly on that.

[OkayPhysicist]

We could, but we don't. Alcohol currently has a defacto monopoly on lubricated social spaces. Distant second is nicotine. Nothing else comes anywhere close.

[trashface]

When I replaced social drinking with solo drinking, I actually drank less (and at a slower pace). Without exception, every bad hangover I've had was from social drinking.

[zevon]

I find this dichotomy a bit strange. A lot of people consume alcohol alone and in many cases this ends up badly for them (no need to speculate about foreboding - the body (and the bodies) of evidence is readily available). Cannabis can be very common in and around social settings, depending on where you are in the world. Other drugs are also pretty much everywhere, including social spaces. They are just more invisible due to their illegality.

[margalabargala]

> the body (and the bodies) of evidence is readily available

My understanding is that the evidence suggests that light social drinkers tend to be healthier and live longer than people who drink not at all.

[0cf8612b2e1e]

This line of thinking has been heavily questioned in recent years. People who never drink typically have a strong reason (recovering alcoholic) for which they have already suffered long term damage. Even people who “don’t drink” can be convinced to imbibe a bit on a special occasion (New Years, graduation, wedding, etc).

[Gigachad]

That’s just people who have friends and socialise are healthier. There are only negative health effects from alcohol itself.

If you went out to all those same events and just drank non alcoholic drinks you’d be healthier.

[fragmede]

That assumes you'd be the same amount of social at those events without alcohol. If a beer or two takes the edge off and you're able to relax and relate and socialize and you're happy, vs you're nervous and uptight and are alone in a crowd, you don't get the same benefit. It's not called a social lubricant for nothing.

[scotty79]

Causation goes the other way. Healthier people tend to drink more because they don't have enough signals from their bodies to respect them.

[margalabargala]

That would be a novel finding in the field! Tell me more.

[scotty79]

https://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/about-alcohol-use/moderate-alcoh...

It's not any new research. Just a simple conclusion from the entirety of research in this field. All research shows that there's no safe dose of alcohol. That starting to drink never improved anyone's health. So if there's correlation between health and moderate use any causation that might be there can't go from alcohol to improved health. So it most likely goes the other way around. Or both things are a result of other factor. For example affluence. It is known that more affluent people drink more and at the same time more affluent people have better health. "moderately" is just roughly the level where damage from alcohol balances out the health surplus of whatever caused them to drink more.

[zevon]

Which was not at all what I was taking about, or am I missing a point?

[amanaplanacanal]

if. Other drug use can be just as social as alcohol consumption.

[OkayPhysicist]

Since opium dens fell out of favor, the only psychoactive substances that have dedicated social spaces are booze (bars, nightclubs) and nicotine (hookah lounges, cigar clubs). This could change, but it hasn't yet. It sure seems like society's just swinging antisocial.

[throwawa5]

Raves, (some) nightclubs, and music festivals are the equivalent for MDMA/ket/psychedelics and there are plenty of options in every city.

[xnx]

> the only psychoactive substances that have dedicated social spaces are booze (bars, nightclubs) and nicotine (hookah lounges, cigar clubs)

caffeine (cafes)

[OkayPhysicist]

Maybe it's just where I live, but cafes and coffee shops no longer have the expectation of being open to conversation with strangers.

[tpm]

There are also teahouses in some cities.

[oldmanhorton]

And also, a decent chunk of alcohol consumption must be solo? I'd bet alcohol is broadly more social, but I would also wonder if that would change if more public gathering places served weed in some form.

[OkayPhysicist]

Substance use is dropping precipitously, because partying and socialization writ large are dropping. The people who party are still drinking, they're really not the ones driving these decreases.

Alcohol's primary purpose in our society is as a social lubricant. It both lowers inhibitions, and in the expectation of its doing so creates spaces with freer acceptable behavior. Cannabis doesn't currently fill that niche, because there aren't really spaces dedicated to its consumption.

[laughing_man]

I wonder if some of the drop is just that people are worried if they let loose a video will make its way onto TikTok and be there forever.

[littlexsparkee]

Well, with edibles, mints, drinks - does there need to be? There are lounges opening in some cities like Oakland, SF but that's an emerging thing depending on openness to changing zoning.

[OkayPhysicist]

Dedicated spaces to consuming social lubricants naturally are social spaces. Losing them would be a dramatic blow to the entire concept of social life.

[littlexsparkee]

Yeah, I agree with you. I'm just saying someone could take a 5mg THC mint and then grab a beer at a bar to be social. My point is that weed can be social in any third place, whether or not it's dedicated to it.

[throwawa5]

And many US cities allow bars to serve THC-infused drinks. They won't win any awards for flavor but can be a fun alternative to alcohol.

[dmonitor]

> and then grab a beer at a bar to be social

I feel like you're missing the point. The bar a necessary part of the equation because alcohol has a social monopoly on physical locations.

[xenospn]

When I smoke weed, the last thing I want to do is be around people, or socialize. It also doesn’t make me horny. The exact opposite of alcohol.

[zamalek]

> night out at the bar is expensive now

"They" will make it cheaper. If you look at the cost of alcohol in developing countries, it can be way WAY cheaper. The profit and tax margins are currently colossal, both of which can be changed by big booze.

[kingstnap]

You don't really need to compare to developing countries.

Making alcohol is not hard. It's not technically complicated, it's not dangerous, it's not capital intensive, it's not laborious, and the inputs are all cheap commodity goods.

If you went and bought a big barrel and some other equipment, you could make alcohol for literally pennies per can.

[Gigachad]

It’s not just alcohol tax. Rent, wages, and insurance cost way more than in developing countries.

[staplers]

NA beers and cocktails are becoming more common at bars and restaurants, which helps dramatically if you are shifting lifestyles.

You can still go out with friends and enjoy festivities while "blending in". People are often more caged if they're drinking and you're not and that subtle camouflage can help alleviate that social awkwardness.

[socalgal2]

> The shift in perception of alcohol is certainly a good sign.

Is it? That same video, in the last 2-3 mins, mentioned all the positives of alcohol and ton of possibly related fallout from social drinking going down. People being lonely and depressed instead of socializing.

If I had to choose between living an extra few years but being lonely and depressed vs living a few less years but enjoying them a bunch more I'd choose the enjoyment.

I get that *maybe* that can happen without the alcohol but it's not happening and my experience is that alcohol is a net positive at the moment, until some substitute appears.

Also, different cultures have different associations with alcohol. My opinions on alcohol changed over my life:

As a child my parents offered me a sip of wine/beer/etc and it tasted horrible so I had no interest.

As a teen I happened to get interested in a religion that said "no alcohol" and so I saw it as a bad thing.

As a 20-25 I gave up the religion but it was "designated driver" time and I was happy to be that and so alcohol had this negative "drunk drivers" association.

Around 26-30 I got in a relationship with some who liked to drink socially. I tried it, nothing tasted good and it gave me a headache so after a few months I went back to not drinking as i got nothing positive out of it.

As 30 something I moved to Japan where (1) I no longer had to drive so no worries about drunk driving (2) my friends/co-workers/classmates introduced me to izakaya culture - being with friends for 2-6 hours, drinking and snacking and talking. And sometimes going to 2nd, 3rd, or 4th outings. Now, love that experience and I wouldn't give it up for almost anything. I love being with my friends, and, as the video pointed out, the alcohol works. The experience is different than without alcohol, and in a positive way. Remove it and it's influences and I think the experience would die out. I certainly don't like the negative health effects but I'm not going to give up hanging out with friends and the drinking, for me, is a positive part of that experience.

Here's a talk about how alcohol helped civilization

https://longnow.org/talks/02022-slingerland/

[cedws]

I live in Japan at the moment and from what I've observed, people enjoy the night a lot more than in London. I'm 24 and almost never see people my age in central London - it's simply too expensive for anyone to really hang out there. The busy pubs that people do go to are £8 a pint and have terrible service.

I feel that Japan is a place where you can really enjoy yourself at night. You don't have to worry about your phone being stolen, being ripped off or drugged, or having to pay for an extortionate taxi ride as long as you can wait long enough for the first train. London nightlife is worse in every way besides nightclubs.

[kruffalon]

> my friends/co-workers/classmates introduced me to izakaya culture - being with friends for 2-6 hours, drinking and snacking and talking. And sometimes going to 2nd, 3rd, or 4th outings.

There must be something I'm not understanding about "izakaya culture", because that just sounds like hanging with friends without a specific activity planned so you just talk shit, have a drink and eat (whether at home or different places around town), maybe someone breaks out a pack of cards?

[socalgal2]

You might be right. Maybe it's solely cultural inertia and the fact that there are tons of izakaya that can take a group from 2 to 24 and up, whereas there aren't many places to play boardgames. You can offer someone's house but that's usually less convenient geographically in my experience.

Someone's house might not be clean, they have to plan ahead. Someone's house might not have snacks. They either have to get some or else do potluck but potluck requires everyone to plan ahead. Someone's house likely doesn't have as much variety so people have to settle for what's available. Someone's house doesn't have a waiter and cooking staff so people can be stuck in the kitchen. I guess you can order doordash/pizza to solve some of that. Though if you want something else it's not going to arrive in 3-5 mins like an izakaya. It will be 20-40mins. Someone's house might not seat as many people (regularly had 25-30 people show up). Someone's house you might need to keep quiet (like an apartment). Someone's house might have pets (so people with pet allergies can't come).

Yea, I know you didn't say "someone's house" but I don't know where else I could break out a deck of cards. Most restaurants/bars won't allow it AFAIK so that's what made me think of people's homes.

[Symbiote]

The cards was an aside.

What you describe sounds very similar to going to a pub in Britain, a tapas bar in Spain or a beer hall in Germany. (Presumably some traditional American equivalent, but I don't know the name.)

"And sometimes going to 2nd, 3rd, or 4th outings" is called a pub crawl or bar crawl in English.

[socalgal2]

I think pub in Britain, tapas bar in Spain, beer hall in Germany are all similar to izakaya in Japan. In the USA though, the USA arguably doesn't have an analog to those. The USA has sports bars. Sports bars have 12 to 50 TVs up to watch sports. It's not the same vibe at all. Sports bars have very bad food, unlike izayaka (and maybe tapas bars).

In the USA you also generally have to drive which limits the drinking. I don't know about Germany/Spain/Britain in general but certainly places like Berlin/Barcelona/London it's easy to go out drinking without having to drive.

[Balgair]

> a night out at the bar is expensive now

I mean, I understand the economics of it. Rent, wages, pricing, supply and demand, etc.

But, like, how messed up are things that hooch is too expensive. Like, it literally grows on trees (if you leave it there a bit). Booze is the thing where sales go up when things get worse (lipstick too, right?).

I'm not saying this is a bad thing that we're not drinking as much, but I am saying that not drinking as much is a sign of really bad things.

[theshackleford]

> But, like, how messed up are things that hooch is too expensive.

In my country, it is now taxed very heavily, and that tax increases every year. I would be insane to choose alcohol as opposed to literally any other drug on a cost basis. I assure you, Cannabis has not raised in price every year.

[sillyfluke]

This stat is way less interesting when it turns out the main driver for the drop is the economy, which my bet is on, and which is why the article buries that cause and puts it towards the end of the article. If the stat can't survive a booming economy it's kind of meaningless.

But it might be very interesting for another reason: it might be confirming the perception of the economy is at an all time low as well.