[pron]

> And C has free, but you have to remember to use it and use it correctly every single time instead of the memory working by default with no intervention.

Tangential, but memory leaks are not considered a safety issue, especially by those who do like to contrast with Rust (as it isn't prevented in Rust).

If we're talking about features that help (though not completely avoid) some bugs, you can't just consider the features C++ has and Zig doesn't, but also consider the relevant features Zig has and C++ doesn't.

Like I said, I don't know which of those two languages results in more correct programs (just as I don't know the answer for Zig vs Rust), but I do know that Zig offers more safety guanrantees than C++, and Rust offers more safety guarantees than Zig. I certainly don't claim that more safety guarantess always equals more correctness at a lower cost.

Even more tangentially, in the Java world we have this thing called "integrity" (https://openjdk.org/jeps/8305968) which is the ability of Java code to locally establish inviolate invariants that are guaranteed to hold globally (unless the application author - importantly not any library code - explicitly allows them to be violated). C++ scores quite low on the integrity front, as virtually all intended invariants can be violated without a global flag, sometimes in ways that are hard to detect. In both Rust and Zig, integrity violations are generally easier to at least detect (although in Zig they're sometimes harder to establish in the first place; this is intentional, and I don't entirely agree with the justification for that, although I can see its merits in a low-level language).

> Not true, the last 30 years have had much safer languages than before java, scripting languages, modern C++ and rust.

I don't see how that contradicts what I said, especially since language that offer even more correctness - such as Idris or ATS - have had effectively zero adoption. The languages that have succeeded are safer than C or FORTRAN, but also clearly compromise on what they offer (compared to Idris/ATS) because of costs. They very much embody the an acceptance of tradeoffs, and much of the memory safety in most safe languages is offered through GCs, that come with the cost of higher memory footprint. If anything, their growing popularity has come due to advancements in GCs.

Rust (you brought it up this time) is particularly interesting, because it offers something different than before to prevent UAF but at a higher cost than previous popular safe languages. While I don't know how popular Rust will be in the future, its current adoption is quite significantly lower than any language that's ever become popular at the same age.

> Pragmatically they mean you don't have to worry about bounds checking or memory deallocation and it stops being a problem

I haven't noticed that either one of these has "stopped being a problem", and I think that those who either sell or buy Rust do so because they believe these are still significant problems in C++ (and I would agree, except I think there are worse problems in C++ - that Rust, unfortunately, adopted - even with respect to correctness, that Zig attempts to solve).

> Zig doesn't have this and it doesn't have safety guarantees either

Zig definitely has safety guarantees around bounds and numeric overflow that C++ doesn't.

[CyberDildonics]

memory leaks are not considered a safety issue

Who told you that?

in the Java world we have this thing called "integrity"

Your claim was that zig is 'safer' than C++

Zig definitely has safety guarantees around bounds and numeric overflow that C++ doesn't.

This can be built in to a class too if someone really wants a bunch of branching in their math.

It seems like now safety is being redefined to say that memory leaks don't count and numeric overflow needs to be done like zig. If your program leaks memory, it eventually crashes if it runs indefinitely and that means you need to free memory, which means you need to free it at the right time only once.

[pron]

> Who told you that?

There is no one definitive definition of memory safety, but it generally refers to things that can lead to undefined behaviour (in the C and C++ sense), usually due to "type confusion" (or sometimes "heap pollution"), i.e. referencing an address of memory that contains data of one type as if it were another, which can happen due to both bounds or UAF violations. Memory leaks don't cause undefined behaviour.

> This can be built in to a class too if someone really wants a bunch of branching in their math.

Let me say this again: The Zig language, just like Rust, guarantees that there are no bounds violations (except in syntactically demarcated unsafe code). C++ just doesn't do that.

That is not to say that the lack of this guarantee in C++ means you can't write correct programs in C++ as easily as in Zig or in Rust, but it is, nevertheless, a difference in the guarantees made by the language.

> It seems like now safety is being redefined to say that memory leaks don't count and numeric overflow needs to be done like zig

Memory unsafety is generally considered to be some subset of undefined behaviour (possibly including all undefined behaviour). Out-of-memory and stack overflow errors are definitely problems, but as they don't cause undefined behaviour (well, depending on stack protection) they're not usually regarded in the class of properties called memory safety.

Numeric overflows, on the other hand, might also not be regarded as memory safety, but they are very much undefined behaviour in both C and C++.

[CyberDildonics]

the Zig language, just like Rust, guarantees that there are no bounds violations (except in syntactically demarcated unsafe code). C++ just doesn't do that.

You said that already, but when saying zig is safer than C++, pragmatically it isn't because C++ bounds checks in the standard library but zig can never have the automatic resource management that C++ has, and that's what people use all day every day.

[pron]

We keep talking about completely different things. If we're talking about "features that can help reduce some bug" then C++ or Rust have some that Zig doesn't and Zig has some that C++ or Rust don't. Which ends up more pragmatic is an empirical question that's hard to answer without data, but certainly focusing only on what C++ has and Zig doesn't while ignoring what Zig has that C++ doesn't is a strange way to compare things (BTW, I've been programming in C++ for almost 3 decades, and I really dislike RAII and try to avoid it).

But if we're talking about memory safety - which is something very specific - then, for whatever it's worth, Zig is more memory-safe than C++ and Rust is more memory-safe than Zig.

[CyberDildonics]

We keep talking about completely different things.

You said zig is safer than C++, then to make that argument you keep trying to redefine what safety means to include only features in the language syntax but not done in libraries while saying memory leaks don't matter and automatically freeing memory correctly doesn't matter.

[pron]

I am not redefining what safety means. I am using the same definition of safety used in this entire thread by those debating the pros and cons of Rust being safer than Zig.

I definitely didn't say that memory leaks don't matter. They could possibly matter more than memory safety. They are just not called memory safety bugs, or code injection bugs, or off-by-one bugs. Memory safety is a name given to a class of bugs that lead to undefined behaviour in C or C++. It's not necessarily the most important class of bugs, but it is one, and when we're talking about preventing code injection or memory safety issues, we're not talking about preventing memory leaks - even if they're worse.

Now, if you want to talk about memory leaks and not memory safety (again, it's just a name given to some bugs and not others) then C, C++, Zig, and Rust, do not prevent them. Java prevents the kind "I forgot to free this object" kind, but not "I forgot about this object" kind.

Now, because unlike memory safety, none of these languages prevents memory leaks, it's really hard to say which of them leads to the fewest memory leaks. You really like C++'s destructors and find them useful, I really hate C++'s destructors and find them harmful, and we all have different opinions on why our way is better when it comes to memory leaks. What we don't have is data. So you can say having destructors helps and I can say no they don't until the end of time, but there's no way of knowing which is really better. So all we can do now, is to use the things we find useful to us without making broad generalisations about software correctness that we can't actually support with any evidence.

[uecker]

Memory leaks are also a safety issue. Especially not running destructors can be a safety issue, but also a resource leak is at least a DoS. IIRC Rust also included not having memory leaks earlier in their definition of memory safety, but dropped it later.

[pron]

The vast majority of catastrophic problems - nearly all of them, in the grand scheme of things - including those that can cause total system failure or theft of all data are not considered memory safety issues (which is one of the reasons that memory safety is overestimated or at least misunderstood, IMO, and why I prefer to talk about correctness in general). Memory safety refers to a specific kind of problems that correspond to undefined behaviour in C or C++. Memory safety issues are not neessarily any more or less sever than any other program weakness, it's just that for a long time they've been associated with low-level programming.

I'm not aware of any popular language - even a high level one - that prevents memory leaks with any kind of guarantee (although these come in different flavours too, and some kinds are prevented in Java). C/C++/Rust/Zig certainly don't.

[uecker]

Memory safety - as now being popularized by Rust in its current form - mostly corresponds to not having UB in C or C++. My point is that this not the only definition and not even the definition Rust started with.

Memory leaks are often a part of the definition of memory safety because otherwise it is trivial to fix use-after-free, i.e. simple never free the memory. Rust dropped this part because it was too hard. So in some sense the cheated a little bit.

[pron]

Well, when Rust came out I had only been programming in C and C++ for about 15, maybe 20 years, but I think that even then we generally used memory safety to refer to problems that can cause "type confusion". In any event, given that none of the languages mentioned here - C, C++, Zig, or Rust - prevent memory leaks, I don't think that the question of whether or not we include it under the umbrella of memory safety could offer insight on the interesting distinctions between these languages.