[linkage]

Java is more akin to the Corolla. Utterly insipid (by design), lacking in refinements compared to competitors like the Mazda3, and made for people who just see it as a way to get from point A to point B.

PHP is the Hyundai Elantra of programming. It used to be popular because of low adoption costs but was the butt of jokes for a long time because of its questionable design and poor reliability. But like the Elantra, it has come a long way and is actually decent these days.

[catigula]

This is very ignorant of a modern Corolla in a lot of ways.

As an example, since 2023, the standard base level Corolla has an automated suite of driving assistance technologies that blow away anything Mazda offers even at their highest level of expense.

There is only one car that passed testing for automatic emergency braking from 62mph to a dead-stop (future standard) - the Toyota Corolla.

[nostrademons]

I think it's a pretty good analogy - the only programming language that I think might be a better one would be Go.

Toyota Corollas are exceptionally well-engineered cars. The thing is, they're engineered for convenience, reliability, and affordability. Toyota explicitly eschews bells and whistles that seem impressive but would add complexity to the car, because complexity usually brings cost and unreliability with it. So you get a car that is boring to drive, boring to ride in, but fulfills the car's primary purpose (getting you from point A to point B, cheaply and safely) extremely well.

Likewise, Java is also extremely well-engineered. If you've ever looked in the internals of the JVM or the class libraries, there is a lot of thought and a lot of advanced technology that went into it. But it's engineered to be boring. It's made so that the average programmer at a big company can be productive without screwing things up too much.

The only reason I'd say that Go might be a better analogy is because Go is also extremely well-engineered, but it's engineered to be reliable when used by average programmers at big companies. There are still quite a few footguns in Java around multithreading and exception handling. Go just says "We'll use CSP for concurrency, which is already battle-tested, and we'll make every programmer handle every error case explicitly even though it's lots of boilerplate code, because if you don't make engineers think about it they get it wrong." That's a pretty apt analogy to the Corolla, which is also pretty concerned with making sure that semi-skilled mechanics and unskilled drivers need to explicitly think about what they're doing because otherwise they get it wrong.

[benjiro]

> Toyota Corollas are exceptionally well-engineered cars. The thing is, they're engineered for convenience, reliability, and affordability.

Say that to the half a dozen recalls my 2007 Toyota Corolla had. The constant sensor issues. And a slew of other issues, like the very well know chain issues.

Well engineered is something that really does not fit with my 2007 Corolla. Yes, my 1992 Corolla was a tank, but not the "modern" 2007 version.

> affordability?

You mean the 33.000 euro that a base model Corolla now costs??? I think people have been living in the old corolla's mindset from the 90's because modern Corolla's are expensive cars.

Worst of all, its not even the good hybrid. A BYD SUV with 1080km actual road range, with full loaded electronics, solar roof, the works was 36.000 euro here. When a not big hatchback is that expensive, vs a freaking SUV...

[JohnKemeny]

You sound very sad that your Corolla isn't good. I would get rid of it, if I were you.

However, 6 issues with a 20 year old car doesn't sound that bad to me.

Edit: By the way, you can easily get a 2023 Corolla for less than 23k euro.

[benjiro]

Those are just the official recalls, not the stuff they know is wrong with the car, but never got a recall. Trust me, it was more issues then that.

In general, Toyota is known for their good engines. And the engine itself was indeed good, it did not have issues with oil burning after so many years. So the tolerances are very good.

It was the rest that showed a lot less quality control. The airbags alone was so problematic that they even had airbags going off by themselves (reason for 2 recalls).

Ironically, got a Opel for almost the same timeframe (both cars overlapped), and thing has been more reliable then Toyota. Brand reputation is just that, something from the past.

You never know if a good brand is going to release a less good car, or a bad brand, releases a good car. These days cars are just kitbashing as most brands are a mix of different brands, where parts are mixed between them. Your brand can be Citroen but the base can be Peugeot, the engine can be Renault, the electronics can be Citroën ... you get the point.

[john01dav]

If I want to buy a car today, preferably electric, that is like the corollas of the 90s, what should I buy? Not having customer hostile features like DRM or anti repair anti features is a part of this.

[cestith]

Subarus are very reliable these days. They only have one EV model right now I think, but another is coming.

[catigula]

This just isn't the case anymore, Toyota isn't that company.

Right now they're just producing cars that are better engineered and it isn't because their pieces are conservative. Their technology isn't lagging, in fact, it's ahead in this particular area of COMMODITY cars.

Even that being granted, Toyota is an integrator. They don't have vertical control of their supply chain. They're not as far ahead or different from other companies, they just have different priorities and a larger war chest to draw from.

Luxury cars are ahead but that isn't in contention.

[CamouflagedKiwi]

I'd also argue that Go is the better analogy because it also eschews bells and whistles that would add complexity to it. While Java the language was indeed intended to be fairly unexciting, the JVM came with a bunch of complexity that took quite some time to tame (e.g. it took a while for JITing to really get the performance to a reasonable point, and GC longer still).

[kube-system]

The modern Corolla, like most competitive cars, is a good, safe, high-quality, reliable car. These qualities aren't at odds with being "insipid". The Corolla interior feels utilitarian, its features are spartan, and the driving dynamics are... behaved.

It does exactly what a transportation device needs to do, and it does them quite well. However, neither excitement nor flavor were in the design criteria.

[catigula]

The characterization was still incorrect.

The Corolla has better implementations of modern features than the Mazda3, it's simply not as flashy.

[tristor]

> The Corolla has better implementations of modern features than the Mazda3, it's simply not as flashy.

As someone who owns and drives a 2024 Mazda 3 PP daily, and test drove and compares notes with my neighbor who dailies a 2024 Corolla XSE Hatch, I don't think this characterization is accurate at all. I have nothing against the Corolla, but the Corolla is lacking in /many/ ways compared to the Mazda3.

One simple example is that my Mazda3 has a heads up display that puts car safety system data, turn-by-turn navigation (from android auto or apple carplay or built-in nav), speed data, and vehicle data into the HUD so I never need to look down at the dash.

Another example is that while the Mazda3 has a touchscreen in the center console, there are physical controls for every functionality with good tactility and Mazda has chosen to disable the touchscreen once you exceed 5MPH (by default), ensuring you aren't distracting yourself using a touchscreen while on the highway.

As to all those automated safety systems, most of those are government mandated and every car has them. I do agree that Toyota does a better job than most manufacturers, but to my knowledge there is not a single system on my neighbor's 2024 Corolla that isn't also on my 2024 Mazda3...

Where the Corolla wins in my opinion is actually its simplicity. The Mazda3 has too much effort in its interior, but also somehow not quite enough, and it ends up with it being very comfortable to drive except it sometimes has rattles in panels, which is not a very premium experience. The Corolla has a much more basic interior, very bog standard, but it's also flawless in executing being bog standard.

As far as driving dynamics, it's no contest, the Mazda3 is significantly better. The only Corolla with great driving dynamics is the GR Corolla, but that's really a completely different sort of car.

[kube-system]

The word "insipid" doesn't really have anything to do with being a "good implementation" or not.

[catigula]

Right, which is why you're focusing on it rather than the two other claims made.

>lacking in refinements compared to competitors like the Mazda3, and made for people who just see it as a way to get from point A to point B.

Of course, I also disagree that it is insipid, that's also inaccurate vis-a-vis modern Toyota, but that's a different discussion.

[kube-system]

In context, it appears they are using the word “refinement” to refer to enthusiast taste. They’re not saying Toyotas are crude vehicles. Your opinion notwithstanding, their statement is very supportable, both in industry reviews and in both brands own value proposition.

[maxerickson]

The sibling comment is defending what Java has grown into also.

[rconti]

I just had a rental Corolla in Europe. It had a lot of driving assistance features, and they're all absolute dogshit (and, I think, mandated by EU regulators). It's a pain in the ass to turn them all off every time you start the car, and I don't know how any drives these cars with them enabled.

The cluster flashes CONSTANTLY. It flashes to tell you there's a speed limit change. It flashes to tell you there's a crosswalk. It's a cacophony of alerts that lead to immediate fatigue and make all alerts meaningless.

The car beeps constantly. It beeps to tell you the speed limit changed (which happens multiple times per minute in many places). Often in places where the speed limit change isn't signed, but implied -- every interchange on the highway, the limit dips for a side road, then increases again after you pass the side road. It beeps persistently to tell you you're over the speed limit by 1kph, and keeps beeping for at least 5 or maybe 10 seconds.

It tugs at the steering wheel constantly, when it thinks you're too close to a white line. I got news for ya, in countries with narrow roads, you're ALWAYS near a white line. It tugs you towards an oncoming bus because you're cheating too far towards the opposite shoulder. It tugs you towards passing vehicles because you dared make room for faster traffic to go by (see this a fair bit in eastern europe).

Too many of my recent rentals have been Toyotas, usually hybrids (RAV4, Corolla Cross, Corolla).

Give me the Mazda.

[catigula]

So, the interesting thing about this is that I've heard it before but I didn't really understand it until I drove with my father-in-law, who drives like a mental patient.

His cluster was flashing constantly, warning him of imminent doom. And it was warning him correctly, because he was accustomed to driving incorrectly.

Of course, he hadn't been in an accident in some time - but this was more thanks to luck of the draw, his ability to ride the razor's edge, and other people's attentiveness.

I own a modern Toyota and I am never hassled by the safety features.

I own it because I just don't care about cars and it's that car.

[rconti]

| His cluster was flashing constantly, warning him of imminent doom. And it was warning him correctly, because he was accustomed to driving incorrectly.

In the cars I've driven, the cluster flashes all happen regardless of how you drive. The speed limit changes and crosswalk indications and so on, will always trigger. (Unless you disable them -- however, in a foreign country, where I don't understand the customs quite as well, I was willing to tolerate the annoyance to reduce my odds of running afoul of the local constabulary).

The one exception is the speed limit indicator continues to flash if you dare exceed the posted (or, sometimes imagined) limit.

[cosmic_cheese]

It’s possible that my car (NA market 2023 Nissan EV) just isn’t as “vocal”, but as a relatively new driver I’ve found myself changing my habits to not anger the machine. These days it rarely gripes at me.

[rconti]

Arguably some of them are useful (speed? as much as I hate to say it).

I don't think the "don't drive anywhere near the edge of the lane" is a good practice. There are lots and lots and lots of good, pro-safety reasons to come near the edge of a lane, or even cross over it, and I'm not sure it's helpful to train drivers to stay in the geometric center of the lane. For example it's one of the things I hate about autopilot the most, the car tries too aggressively to center itself.

[mldbk]

You definitely tried Mazda long ago :)

[catigula]

No, I'm aware of both involved technologies the implementations.

I test drove the Mazda3 for my kids and it had some faux-luxury accoutrements but fundamentally it was an inferior car: the technology implementation was worse.

Mazda hasn't invested in drivetrain implementations so they license Toyota's. Mazda hasn't invested in ADAS software so they barely try. Mazda hasn't invested in a decent suspension implementation so their 3 line uses some god-awful torsion beam garbage that feels completely unrefined and consumer.

Bad.

[tristor]

> Mazda hasn't invested in drivetrain implementations so they license Toyota's.

??? Mazda has their own drivetrain development, there is nothing in a Mazda3 that is shared with a Toyota. The only company sharing drivetrain with Toyota is Subaru and BMW via their joint ventures on the BRZ/GR86 and the Z4/Supra.

> Mazda hasn't invested in a decent suspension implementation so their 3 line uses some god-awful torsion beam garbage that feels completely unrefined and consumer.

Mazda uses a torsion beam rear suspension on the Mazda3, that is true. While independent and multi-link suspensions /can/ be superior handling, it relies on having adjustability in the suspension arms to allow you to set your geometry to match your expected conditions and the tires you're using, which is to say that it's basically irrelevant in a commodity road-going vehicle, most of which offer no adjustment in the rear or toe-only adjustment. I say this as someone who raced cars as a hobby, and invested the time/effort/money to learn at least as much about suspension design as someone who did an undergrad in MechE, modeled my racecar's suspension in software, and worked with a shop to develop and produce custom suspension arms with full adjustability to match my ideal geometry.

Despite the technically "worse" torsion beam suspension in the rear of the Mazda3, it handles better than a Corolla XSE on a curvy road.

EDIT: I stand corrected, Mazda licenses the RAV4 Hybrid drivetrain for the CX-50 Hybrid crossover. Which is of course super-relevant to the Mazda3, a totally different vehicle, which almost anyone who cares about the drivetrian buys with the 2.5L turbo motor and PP so they get AWD, but hey who's counting.

[catigula]

I'd have simply deleted the post if the driving force of it were corrected.

Mazda licensed the drivetrain because they're a small company without much development going on. They can't really make anything good.

[tristor]

Their racing pedigree and long standing in the hot hatch category disagrees with you, so do the basic facts of the matter.

You've now written yourself off as an idiot with an axe to grind rather than any form of good faith interaction.

[Freedom2]

Modern Java is quite good these days, no? Type inference, fibers, text blocks, records...

I agree if we were talking about Java 8 (and I have no doubt a lot of people are still unfortunately using that), but I wouldn't mind a modern Java setup as much as I would have in the past.

[perching_aix]

Pretty funny you mention Java 8 as a negative example, I remember it being widely heralded as a step in the right direction that was a long time coming and a breath of fresh air.

[CamouflagedKiwi]

I think they just mean that newer versions are further steps in that direction, not that Java 8 was a step the wrong way.

[earnestinger]

Yup. Java 1.8 is humongous leap to the right direction.

[dionian]

The JVM and its ecosystem are the best thing about the Java platform. Not the language, i dont even use it anymore and i am nearly 100% JVM based. But even then its still not horrible. it's just that there are better options like Scala.

[Reubachi]

Great analogy, horrible example in the analogy heh. (Hate to nitpick)

Of the two, Mazda3 would be the "less frills, cheaper, works", especially in 2025.

I also don't recall a period of lack of trust for corolla due to design/repair ability; My great uncle always talks about his "first real, new car" being a 69 corolla that was a workhorse. That paved the way for the JP takeover by the late 80s.

[smrtinsert]

Java is more like the Honda. It's literally everywhere, ultra reliable, sufficiently boring technology that people can't stand to look at it because it simply makes no statement about anything, and despite all attempts to replace it or dethrone it, it continues to excel and grow.

[antisthenes]

You are great with analogies.

Can you tell me which car is Python, so I can add it to my shopping list?

[addaon]

> Can you tell me which car is Python, so I can add it to my shopping list?

The Hummer H3. When the Hummer came out it did a few things exceptionally well — better than anything else — although there were plenty of areas (speed, aesthetics) where it was crap. It was popular, so they made a later version riding on the name that was incompatible with the original mission, hoping that the folks who had aspired to the first version would continue along; and somehow it worked.

[culopatin]

A Mercedes Benz sprinter. It’s being used for everything. From simple delivery to nerdy camping. Not the fastest, but has loads of modularity and can work as a daily, work truck or leisure.

[tstenner]

I'd say the sprinter is more like Fortran. You use it when you need to move around lots of stuff and although it's quite fast on its own, you would drive it neither for fun nor when you only have a few things to move around.

[Grazester]

Long gone are Days that the Corolla was bare bones and even then it was better than what the Mazda 323 had to offer

[linkage]

I drove a 2009 Corolla SE for 3 years of my life. Its _only_ redeeming quality was that maintenance and repair bills were minimal. Besides that, it was sluggish on the highway, handled like a shopping cart, unstable at 140 km/h, and had an interior that would never let you forget that you’re poor.

Toyota is incapable of making a fun car - it’s just not in their DNA. That’s why all of their current sports cars are made by other companies (Subaru and BMW).

[slt2021]

Java is more like Ford F-150 than Corolla