[44520297]

Sure, but let’s remember that “working” is not the end-all, be-all of human existence. Some will stop working and care for an aging parent. Some will stop working and raise children. Some will stop working and make art. We have the opportunity to maximize human flourishing. Let’s not mistake where we’ve been for where we’re going.

[bluefirebrand]

Many will simply stop working and simply rot

We saw plenty of it during COVID, people were off work and had basic income and such taken care of. They chose to just sit and do nothing

Some people started streaming or content creating or doing art at home or whatever

Most people just rotted. They sat and watched shows and movies and goofed around online

[zuminator]

Assuming both people are obtaining the same level of enjoyment, why is goofing around online considered "rotting" compared with streaming and doing art at home? I'm not trying to knock hobbies, but I think being alive and content is its own reward, even if the person is lacking a résumé of daily achievements to rattle off at dinner parties.

[ReaperCub]

It isn't just about having something to talk about at a dinner party. It is about doing something productive and worth-while. There is a massive feeling of accomplishment from doing some that is productive. Having something interesting to talk about is an additional benefit. A good portion of those people that were pro-active and learned to stream, turned it into a side income. I wish I had done that. I was desperately trying to find a job after being laid off.

You get none of these benefits from watching Netflix on the sofa. In fact it is likely to make you miserable. A lot of people were negatively affected over COVID. A lot of people regressed into a shell and had a form of depression. I spoke to people mid lockdowns who were working from home and were saying "If I can't go out and enjoy myself, there is no point in earning this money".

I don't consider myself shy, but I find interacting in person now a lot more stressful than I did before COVID lockdowns.

There were other problems during COVID. A lot of people increased intake of booze. I am glad I had given up drinking the year before (I was an alcoholic) because I worry about what I would have been like. There was an increase in domestic violence in the UK (probably related to the increase in alcohol consumption). I am sure there are other issues I had forgotten about.

[44520297]

> productive and worth-while.

Productive, as defined by... the people who compile labor statistics, or what? Worthwhile, as defined by... the people who dominate the current cultural narrative?

Everyone who ever invented or discovered anything was engaged in "unproductive" activity.

[ReaperCub]

Any normal adult understands the difference.

> Everyone who ever invented or discovered anything was engaged in "unproductive" activity.

Actually no. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_preference

[throaway955]

The main drawback to binging Netflix isn't anything silly like a lack of production...it's the lack of activity. That's what makes people sick.

[throaway955]

this doesn't sound like a ubi problem to me.

For one, during Covid, most people were encouraged, if not required by law, to limit their interactions, and some were literally not allowed to leave the house. For years.

Secondly, just because UBI gives people leave to sit around at home, doesn't mean that binging Netflix or alcohol is somehow the fault of "not working."

I know many people whose life consists of working extremely hard, then going home and binging Netflix or alcohol or mairjuana until they pass out. Is that somehow better?

[ReaperCub]

> this doesn't sound like a ubi problem to me.

I didn't say it was a UBI problem. I was specifically replying about the effect that it had on people at the time.

> For one, during Covid, most people were encouraged, if not required by law, to limit their interactions, and some were literally not allowed to leave the house. For years.

Yes I know. I was one of those people. I ended up just ignoring the laws BTW and doing what I wanted when I worked out that they couldn't effectively enforce them.

> Secondly, just because UBI gives people leave to sit around at home, doesn't mean that binging Netflix or alcohol is somehow the fault of "not working."

I never said it was. I was specifically talking about what happened during COVID.

> I know many people who's life consists of working extremely hard, then going home and binging Netflix or alcohol or mairjuana until they pass out. Is that somehow better?

Yes, it is.

1) While working you are productive (or at least perceived to be). So at least in theory, you are benefit on society.

2) When you have a substance abuse problem like I did. Your life revolves around it. If you don't have to go to work, I would typically start drinking after lunchtime. Work gave me a break from drinking. As I alluded to in my previous reply in this thread, I am glad gave up drinking at the start of 2019, as I would have had 9 months to drink all day.

[throaway955]

Sounds like you have a substance abuse problem and you're afraid that others will make the same mistake you did.

Saying that people's lives are better because they benefit society through their labour, while suffering from untreated addiction (a truly horrible thing), is quite fatalistic, to me. The substance abuse is a totally different issue from "not working." There are a million things to do other than go to the office.

[sokoloff]

> and some were literally not allowed to leave the house. For years.

Where did that happen?

[coryrc]

> It is about doing something productive and worth-while.

Uh-huh. What percentage of software engineers jobs are "worthwhile"? Working on Amazon's nth hosted OSS SaaS? Making better DRM? Revamping your bank website to the latest javascript framework?

[ReaperCub]

I suggest you re-read my comment. Who said I was talking just paid work? I am talking about doing anything productive even if it is unpaid.

[44520297]

But you haven't offered any measurable definition of productive, so we have no means by which to self-measure whether we agree with you or not.

[throaway955]

making the rich richer in the name of wealth creation? What will we consume without that?

[9x39]

It's all rotting if you're simply consuming and not part of goods & services production. The cash creation resulted in more money chasing less goods & services, and inflation lagged behind but steadily resulted.

Being alive and content is orthogonal to what's rightly predicted - GDP falling off a cliff, with standards of living plummeting and inflation exploding as everyone does more consumption to talk about at dinner parties while even less than ever is being produced.

[throaway955]

Life is the gift, work is just a game.

[xboxnolifes]

> They chose to just sit and do nothing

Well, there was some bias in the fact that it was a global pandemic with most in-person things not being available or significantly worsened.

[44520297]

The human body is simultaneously decaying and regenerating constantly, but calling it "rotting" mischaracterizes the process. About 330 billion cells are replaced daily, equivalent to about 1 percent of all our cells.

There is nothing particular to labor that changes this, people age at about the same rate whether they are engaged in "working" or not.

[AngryData]

You are surprised that people stayed at home during a pandemic?

[pxc]

Huh? Everyone I knew either worked during that time or was looking for work after getting laid off. (And the vast majority were still working.)

> had basic income and such taken care of

Huh? The COVID checks weren't that regular and didn't cover that much. You mean collecting unemployment, which also requires proving that you're looking for work?

[LadyCailin]

I think it’s totally fair to ask who is supposed to pay for that. I don’t want the guy who grows the food I eat to stop and go paint, I like eating more than I like him painting. There are plenty of jobs that aren’t fulfilling in the slightest, they are just a means to a paycheck, but are absolutely vital to society. And if those people quit to go make art, we’re all screwed. I don’t think that’s an unfair ask to have a comprehensive answer to.

[zuminator]

If those jobs are really absolutely vital, in a basic income regime they would be well paying enough to entice people to earn the extra disposable income.

[appreciatorBus]

So food will be more expensive?

[44520297]

More expensive relative to what? In nominal terms, everything gets more expensive because of inflation eventually.

[9x39]

Relative to goods with elastic demand, food prices will rise faster because we have to eat. Food prices are also sensitive to its input prices, which also have inelastic demand.

[AngryData]

Labor is a tiny fraction of the cost of food. Last time I did the math only 1% of the cost of flour goes towards a farmer's labor.

[barnabee]

Precisely. There’d likely be a large wealth transfer back towards boring and less skilled jobs if we couldn’t rely on large numbers of people literally having no choice but to take any job they can get.

I struggle to understand how anyone could consider that a bad thing other than for completely selfish reasons.

[9x39]

>if we couldn’t rely on large numbers of people literally having no choice but to take any job they can get.

Having a massive quasi-legal underclass is a choice and it doesn't require UBI to solve it.

[appreciatorBus]

Who picks up the garbage, who works all day in the solar panel factory, and works in the fields while you are making art?

Ofc it's possible for our world to be much better than today for all of us, but it's also possible for it to be much, much worse.

[44520297]

You are writing in the comments section of a website devoted to the discussion of companies and technologies that have changed the entire world. Technologies that, many suppose, will change the entire nature of labor, specifically.

And yet you ask, "but how will we maintain the world as it is today?"

Invent a better tomorrow. That's what you're here for.

[9x39]

We could call the better tomorrow a great leap forward.

I jest, but smartphones and web apps have not changed that people need ever-more food, clothing, housing, energy on an ongoing basis while the brave new world is being designed and implemented.

[throaway955]

no, its better to complain that people don't want to work anymore.

I wonder what all these "hackers" tradespersons relatives thought of them in 1999. Probably that they were useless computer geeks who would never amount to anything, because they hate "work."

[skeeter2020]

>> Some will stop working and make art

Why do some people get to decide they're going to do this? Why do I have to pay for it?