[throaway955]

this doesn't sound like a ubi problem to me.

For one, during Covid, most people were encouraged, if not required by law, to limit their interactions, and some were literally not allowed to leave the house. For years.

Secondly, just because UBI gives people leave to sit around at home, doesn't mean that binging Netflix or alcohol is somehow the fault of "not working."

I know many people whose life consists of working extremely hard, then going home and binging Netflix or alcohol or mairjuana until they pass out. Is that somehow better?

[ReaperCub]

> this doesn't sound like a ubi problem to me.

I didn't say it was a UBI problem. I was specifically replying about the effect that it had on people at the time.

> For one, during Covid, most people were encouraged, if not required by law, to limit their interactions, and some were literally not allowed to leave the house. For years.

Yes I know. I was one of those people. I ended up just ignoring the laws BTW and doing what I wanted when I worked out that they couldn't effectively enforce them.

> Secondly, just because UBI gives people leave to sit around at home, doesn't mean that binging Netflix or alcohol is somehow the fault of "not working."

I never said it was. I was specifically talking about what happened during COVID.

> I know many people who's life consists of working extremely hard, then going home and binging Netflix or alcohol or mairjuana until they pass out. Is that somehow better?

Yes, it is.

1) While working you are productive (or at least perceived to be). So at least in theory, you are benefit on society.

2) When you have a substance abuse problem like I did. Your life revolves around it. If you don't have to go to work, I would typically start drinking after lunchtime. Work gave me a break from drinking. As I alluded to in my previous reply in this thread, I am glad gave up drinking at the start of 2019, as I would have had 9 months to drink all day.

[throaway955]

Sounds like you have a substance abuse problem and you're afraid that others will make the same mistake you did.

Saying that people's lives are better because they benefit society through their labour, while suffering from untreated addiction (a truly horrible thing), is quite fatalistic, to me. The substance abuse is a totally different issue from "not working." There are a million things to do other than go to the office.

[ReaperCub]

> Sounds like you have a substance abuse problem and you're afraid that others will make the same mistake you did.

I had a substance abuse problem. I have been sober now 7 years.

As for whether I am afraid others will do the same? Yes I am afraid others will make the same mistake that I did. That is why I am warning against it.

> Saying that people's lives are better because they benefit society through their labour, while suffering from untreated addiction (a truly horrible thing), is quite fatalistic, to me.

You asked me whether I thought it was better and I gave you two reasons why I believed it was better. I believe it is be a completely honest assessment based on my own experiences. If you have a critique that is objective of my position I am willing to listen to it, but moralising about how my assessment I am not interested in.

> The substance abuse is a totally different issue from "not working."

In theory yes, in reality no. One will exacerbates the other.

> There are a million things to do other than go to the office.

Sure there are. But unfortunately I have a mortgage and bills that need paying.

[throaway955]

>Sure there are. But unfortunately I have a mortgage and bills that need paying.

Hence the UBI.

>In theory yes, in reality no. One will exacerbates the other.

Big big big assumption that doesn't match my reality very well. People who keep active, have a social life and are happy are at less risk for addiction. Not people who "have a job." Those are not the same things.

>You asked me whether I thought it was better and I gave you two reasons why I believed it was better. I believe it is be a completely honest assessment based on my own experiences. If you have a critique that is objective of my position I am willing to listen to it, but moralising about how my assessment I am not interested in.

It is not "better" for people to go to work day in and day out as a way of paying back society while slowly killing themselves with addiction. The better thing is to treat the addiction, not get them working.

[ReaperCub]

> Hence the UBI.

Which requires someone else to work to pay for those things. I don't believe other people should pay my mortgage and bills. Those are my responsibility.

I chose to buy a house. I chose to buy a car. I chose the 1 gigabyte virgin media broadband package. Nobody forced me to choose them. Therefore it would be irresponsible and immoral to expect someone else to pay the bill.

> The better thing is to treat the addiction

This assumes that addiction is a disease and a not a choice. I firmly believe it is a choice. I choose to drink excessively in the first place. I made the choice to stop drinking. I chose to stay sober.

As for the rest of what you wrote. You really need to go back an re-read what I said. You asked me which is better between two scenarios. I stated that one was better than the other with a rationale.

You seem to be arguing something else entirely now. I am not sure really what you are arguing against. Certainly not statements I've made in this thread.

[throaway955]

>Which requires someone else to work to pay for those things. I don't believe other people should pay my mortgage and bills. Those are my responsibility.

Then you've made the choice to not pursue other things that will make you happier than "working." Yet my point initially was that working is not anywhere close to the only way that people can stay active and away from "rotting."

No one is saying a UBI needs to pay for a 3 story house and 1 GB internet. If you want more than the basics, you know what to do...work!

>This assumes that addiction is a disease and a not a choice.

No, this assumes that many people will need help quitting an addiction.

>You asked me which is better between two scenarios.

Both scenarios are grim and best avoided. The better solution is to help solve the problem, not to act like work is a cure-all, or that a marginal improvement in the form of societal contribution (or "max time away from drink") is sufficient. For many people, work is the reason they drink, or do drugs, or have anger issues. A proper UBI helps people maintain a healthy lifestyle without having to put themselves in a position where they are stressed and powerless for the rest of their working life.

[sokoloff]

> and some were literally not allowed to leave the house. For years.

Where did that happen?