[zuminator]

Assuming both people are obtaining the same level of enjoyment, why is goofing around online considered "rotting" compared with streaming and doing art at home? I'm not trying to knock hobbies, but I think being alive and content is its own reward, even if the person is lacking a résumé of daily achievements to rattle off at dinner parties.

[ReaperCub]

It isn't just about having something to talk about at a dinner party. It is about doing something productive and worth-while. There is a massive feeling of accomplishment from doing some that is productive. Having something interesting to talk about is an additional benefit. A good portion of those people that were pro-active and learned to stream, turned it into a side income. I wish I had done that. I was desperately trying to find a job after being laid off.

You get none of these benefits from watching Netflix on the sofa. In fact it is likely to make you miserable. A lot of people were negatively affected over COVID. A lot of people regressed into a shell and had a form of depression. I spoke to people mid lockdowns who were working from home and were saying "If I can't go out and enjoy myself, there is no point in earning this money".

I don't consider myself shy, but I find interacting in person now a lot more stressful than I did before COVID lockdowns.

There were other problems during COVID. A lot of people increased intake of booze. I am glad I had given up drinking the year before (I was an alcoholic) because I worry about what I would have been like. There was an increase in domestic violence in the UK (probably related to the increase in alcohol consumption). I am sure there are other issues I had forgotten about.

[44520297]

> productive and worth-while.

Productive, as defined by... the people who compile labor statistics, or what? Worthwhile, as defined by... the people who dominate the current cultural narrative?

Everyone who ever invented or discovered anything was engaged in "unproductive" activity.

[ReaperCub]

Any normal adult understands the difference.

> Everyone who ever invented or discovered anything was engaged in "unproductive" activity.

Actually no. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_preference

[throaway955]

The main drawback to binging Netflix isn't anything silly like a lack of production...it's the lack of activity. That's what makes people sick.

[throaway955]

this doesn't sound like a ubi problem to me.

For one, during Covid, most people were encouraged, if not required by law, to limit their interactions, and some were literally not allowed to leave the house. For years.

Secondly, just because UBI gives people leave to sit around at home, doesn't mean that binging Netflix or alcohol is somehow the fault of "not working."

I know many people whose life consists of working extremely hard, then going home and binging Netflix or alcohol or mairjuana until they pass out. Is that somehow better?

[ReaperCub]

> this doesn't sound like a ubi problem to me.

I didn't say it was a UBI problem. I was specifically replying about the effect that it had on people at the time.

> For one, during Covid, most people were encouraged, if not required by law, to limit their interactions, and some were literally not allowed to leave the house. For years.

Yes I know. I was one of those people. I ended up just ignoring the laws BTW and doing what I wanted when I worked out that they couldn't effectively enforce them.

> Secondly, just because UBI gives people leave to sit around at home, doesn't mean that binging Netflix or alcohol is somehow the fault of "not working."

I never said it was. I was specifically talking about what happened during COVID.

> I know many people who's life consists of working extremely hard, then going home and binging Netflix or alcohol or mairjuana until they pass out. Is that somehow better?

Yes, it is.

1) While working you are productive (or at least perceived to be). So at least in theory, you are benefit on society.

2) When you have a substance abuse problem like I did. Your life revolves around it. If you don't have to go to work, I would typically start drinking after lunchtime. Work gave me a break from drinking. As I alluded to in my previous reply in this thread, I am glad gave up drinking at the start of 2019, as I would have had 9 months to drink all day.

[throaway955]

Sounds like you have a substance abuse problem and you're afraid that others will make the same mistake you did.

Saying that people's lives are better because they benefit society through their labour, while suffering from untreated addiction (a truly horrible thing), is quite fatalistic, to me. The substance abuse is a totally different issue from "not working." There are a million things to do other than go to the office.

[ReaperCub]

> Sounds like you have a substance abuse problem and you're afraid that others will make the same mistake you did.

I had a substance abuse problem. I have been sober now 7 years.

As for whether I am afraid others will do the same? Yes I am afraid others will make the same mistake that I did. That is why I am warning against it.

> Saying that people's lives are better because they benefit society through their labour, while suffering from untreated addiction (a truly horrible thing), is quite fatalistic, to me.

You asked me whether I thought it was better and I gave you two reasons why I believed it was better. I believe it is be a completely honest assessment based on my own experiences. If you have a critique that is objective of my position I am willing to listen to it, but moralising about how my assessment I am not interested in.

> The substance abuse is a totally different issue from "not working."

In theory yes, in reality no. One will exacerbates the other.

> There are a million things to do other than go to the office.

Sure there are. But unfortunately I have a mortgage and bills that need paying.

[throaway955]

>Sure there are. But unfortunately I have a mortgage and bills that need paying.

Hence the UBI.

>In theory yes, in reality no. One will exacerbates the other.

Big big big assumption that doesn't match my reality very well. People who keep active, have a social life and are happy are at less risk for addiction. Not people who "have a job." Those are not the same things.

>You asked me whether I thought it was better and I gave you two reasons why I believed it was better. I believe it is be a completely honest assessment based on my own experiences. If you have a critique that is objective of my position I am willing to listen to it, but moralising about how my assessment I am not interested in.

It is not "better" for people to go to work day in and day out as a way of paying back society while slowly killing themselves with addiction. The better thing is to treat the addiction, not get them working.

[sokoloff]

> and some were literally not allowed to leave the house. For years.

Where did that happen?

[coryrc]

> It is about doing something productive and worth-while.

Uh-huh. What percentage of software engineers jobs are "worthwhile"? Working on Amazon's nth hosted OSS SaaS? Making better DRM? Revamping your bank website to the latest javascript framework?

[ReaperCub]

I suggest you re-read my comment. Who said I was talking just paid work? I am talking about doing anything productive even if it is unpaid.

[44520297]

But you haven't offered any measurable definition of productive, so we have no means by which to self-measure whether we agree with you or not.

[ReaperCub]

Please re-read my comment and come back when you can discuss things like an adult.

[44520297]

From reading your comments, it appears you value physical activity over sedentary activity and disagree with the disease model of addiction because of your own experience and belief system. Frankly, individualized belief systems that don’t exhibit generalizable or interrogatable attributes aren’t very interesting. You’re absolutely free to put up walls around your beliefs and experiences and tell us to keep out, but don’t be surprised when the intellectually curious start knocking on other doors.

[throaway955]

making the rich richer in the name of wealth creation? What will we consume without that?

[9x39]

It's all rotting if you're simply consuming and not part of goods & services production. The cash creation resulted in more money chasing less goods & services, and inflation lagged behind but steadily resulted.

Being alive and content is orthogonal to what's rightly predicted - GDP falling off a cliff, with standards of living plummeting and inflation exploding as everyone does more consumption to talk about at dinner parties while even less than ever is being produced.

[throaway955]

Life is the gift, work is just a game.