[clarky07]

While this is impressive, it still doesn't come anywhere close to solving the problem. It can only be used for commuting and local trips. I regularly travel 450+ miles to visit family. Cannot use this. If you can improve the infrastructure with the charging stations it helps, but still doesn't work. I might be willing to stop for 30 minutes once, but not twice. I can eat a meal while it charges the first time, but as that charge still wouldn't be enough, i guess i just have to twiddle my thumbs for the second 30 minute stop. Adding an hour to my 6.5 hour drive is not something I'd enjoy.

Don't get me wrong, this is awesome for filling the commute hole, but many many people use their cars for longer trips as well. Until you can make it viable for both I'm not spending many tens of thousands of dollars on it.

[acgourley]

You say, "the problem" when you should say "my problem."

Personally I just drive around the SF bay area. Maybe 120 miles on my longest driving day. For the one-two times a year I go farther, I suppose I need to rent a car, take transit. or have someone else drive. That seems like a reasonable price to pay to have the coolest car on the planet for a few years.

[clarky07]

If you have a spare 100k "to be cool" then go for it. If I had that much money to throw around I'd get one as well. It's an awesome car.

That doesn't however just make it "my problem." There aren't very many people buying any of these cars, so I assume it's a problem for more than just me.

The point I'm trying to make, is that if I'm spending 50-100k on a car, I want it to solve "the driving problem." i.e. if I need to drive somewhere, I'd like to be able to do it. Whether I do it often or not is irrelevant. In my case I actually do do it quite frequently, but I suspect that many people don't buy these not because they actually do this once every month or two like I do, but because they want to be able to if they want or need to.

Maybe it's vacation, maybe it's seeing family, maybe it's an emergency. You need to go somewhere and you want to jump in the car and go there. With this you can't, and instead have to go spend several hundred extra dollars and a have a huge hassle of renting a car. No thank you.

[waterlesscloud]

I suspect more $100k cars don't get used on the 450 mile journeys. They're certainly far more common in the city than on the highway between cities. A $100k car is a very different market than a $50k car.

What is interesting, though, is that at least in Los Angeles pretty much every other car in the $100k range is a lot more common than the Roadster. I think I've seen one once. Even considerably pricier cars are more common than that.

[acgourley]

"There aren't very many people buying any of these cars" - I can't tell if you mean teslas, or electric cars in general.

If you mean Teslas - an article in june said there are 10k reserved, which means the waiting list is a year long.

If you mean electric cars in general - I would urge you not to compare the leaf or volt to a tesla model S. The former was sold to cost conscious people who ultimately and correctly saw false economy, limitations and questionable design. The tesla can be sold to anyone who would buy a new BMW/Audi/Mercedes and wants to look earth conscious, tech savy, or hip.

[CapOpp]

There are over 13,000 reservations as of a week ago, and the pace of reservations is accelerating dramatically.

Chevy Volt is doing halfway decent selling 1,800 units per month even if it isn't as good as original projections.

Reservations in August for Model S are already coming close to that pace and the upward trend is accelerating, with each retail store now ramping up to multiple reservations per day.

Tesla is already planning to increase production to a monthly rate that translates into 30,000 units per year, but based on current trends it looks increasingly likely that next year's production might be sold out as early as January or February.

As to who will want the car, it's anyone who wants a new BMW/Audi/Mercedes and who wants to look earth conscious, tech savy, or hip while also saving a ton of money compared to the competition.

Model S Performance (the regular production model as opposed to the limited edition Signature Founders edition used in the test) costs less than BMW M5 even before the huge yearly savings on gas and maintenance (the performance is identical to the tested car, but it has different paint and interior options and is not a limited edition).

Model S 85 costs the same as the 550i GT (its most similar competitor) and saves thousands per year. It also competes with and compares favorably to various 7 series offerings while costing the same or less, and always saving a ton of operating expenses.

Those two cars are the bread and butter of the Model S lineup and are hyper competitive with their conventional counterparts. There are a million plus cars sold in this segment globally and Model S has a big competitive advantage.

[kingnothing]

The base price is $50,000 after tax incentives.

[underwater]

You say "still doesn't come anywhere close to solving the problem". But in really it just doesn't solve your specific problem. Tesla have chosen to tackle for the common case; if they tried to be everything to everyone they'd never have reached production.

Don't forget that the Model S costs around $50,000. Most buyers can afford maintain a second car for the kinds of trips you're talking about.

[clarky07]

I'm just suggesting that the general population doesn't have 50k to spend on something that only provides one very specific utility. As Musk just pointed out the other day, they are in a do or die 6 month period right now, and might not survive. The other electric car options have mostly been failures. Clearly I'm not the only person who would like to have a bit more utility for my 50k.

Keep in mind that you don't get 250 miles of range unless the place on the other end can charge your car for you. You only get 125. That's really not that far.

[enraged_camel]

>>I'm just suggesting that the general population doesn't have 50k to spend on something that only provides one very specific utility.

I doubt that. Take a look at this:

http://www.autospies.com/news/Study-Finds-Americans-Own-2-28...

The average American household owns 2.28 vehicles. The percentage of households that own three or more vehicles is a whopping 35 percent.

Furthermore, the most common pairing of vehicles in American households with two to four cars is a full-sized pickup truck and a standard, mid-range vehicle. The latter can basically be a Tesla.

[clarky07]

first, I have 2 cars with a combined value of less than 10k. that's a far cry from 50k on 1 car. second, no it can't. That's the one they use to do the traveling I'm talking about. They don't take the pickup on the road trip.

[enraged_camel]

Mid-range is typically around 250 miles, which the Tesla can do.

As for budget, sure, the Tesla is a bit on the expensive side, but it is not difficult to afford for middle-class families.

[jfb]

Of course, the model with the 85Kwh battery is significantly more than $50k.

[clarky07]

all the other mid range cars can do another 250 in 5 minutes.

[Arelius]

And the Tesla's value drops over time also. I don't know the exact set of cars you own, but I imagine that together they were likely worth more than 50K new.

[michaelt]

The article says:

  We drove from Fontana on the eastern edge of the L.A. 
  basin to San Diego and all the way back to L.A.'s Pacific 
  edge on one charge. Five hours of continuous driving.

The 233 mile, 5 hour trip was done on a single charge.

To me that's pretty far - I could tolerate a 1 hour break every 5 hours.

[jfb]

But that's not yet in the cards. Realistically, you need to be talking about 2.5 hours as the effective range, as almost nowhere will have the full speed charging setup.

[michaelt]

I was thinking someone who drove 5 hours to visit family would be staying over night and could do an over night charge. I'll admit this may not always be the case.

I certainly agree that serious range and uptake will need serious charging and generation infrastructure.

[clarky07]

Even overnight isn't enough though. It's 30 hours to charge in a normal outlet, and you then you have to take over their garage.

[CapOpp]

"one very specific utility". Driving a long distance is the niche need, not driving every day and saving a ton of money doing it.

Musk said Tesla might die, but it has nothing to do with sales. They have sales coming out of their ears right now, the problem is ramping up production to get cars to people who are throwing their money at Tesla.

[dclusin]

Another problem here as well is the case of poor people. They don't have a lot of money and often times have to travel great distances just to get to work. I know of people who work for Stanford and aren't highly paid professors/doctors/lawyers/etc and routinely commute 60-100 miles each way.

[Locke1689]

They'll have to wait. Early adopters always pay a premium

[cstejerean]

I would expect the number of people that routinely drive 450 mile trips to be greatly outnumbered by those that don't. There is also the option of renting a car for the weekend for those few occasions when you want to take a roadtrip.

[jarito]

Good luck with that. Renting a car for a weekend drive is crazy expensive and varies widely depending on location, time of year, etc. Asking people to pay an unpredictable several hundred dollars for the rental, then pay for gas, several times a year, is not going to work.

I'd focus on 2+ car households. I would love to have an electric that doesn't suck and another car for the wife, traveling, hauling kids, etc. The Tesla doesn't work for me in this case because of its price and the other EVs are not interesting enough for me, but hopefully that will change as the prices come down and the tech spreads out.

[runako]

I agree with your conclusion that the Model S isn't for everyone.

It sounds like you're not in the Model S market segment. Folks that can buy cars in the $50k-$80k range typically wouldn't balk at the cost of renting a car for the weekend. The hassle, maybe, but not the cost.

There are also lots of folks & places whose weekend trips are inside the range of the Model S (consider Boston -> Martha's Vineyard, or Manhattan to The Hamptons for instance).

[clarky07]

To a point this makes sense, but I think you underestimate how many people greatly overspend on cars, and how many people have big car payments as a result. The extra cost can definitely come into play here, at least on the low end of the range. Lots of people spend 35-50k on cars which is what most of these electric cars cost. Obviously this excludes the roadster. I assume anyone buying that has plenty of money and they aren't buying it for roadtrips. Or taking roadtrips for that matter. I'm discussing electric cars in general and saying that, while tesla has made something better than everyone else, it still isn't good enough.

[joezydeco]

Not sure where you live, but in the US you can usually get a weekend special from Enterprise for $10/day (although it's 100 miles a day) if you time it right. If not, a full-size sedan with unlimited miles will run you maybe $50-70. A rental might cost you hundreds if you're looking in the wrong place like an airport location, or the wrong time like a busy national holiday.

[bcbrown]

You mean like the time when many people will be driving a long distance to visit family?

[joezydeco]

Okay, sure. So let's do the unthinkable: I'm going to see what Enterprise wants for a unlimited mileage full-sized sedan, over the Labor Day weekend (pickup Friday noon, return 8am Tuesday). Big car, big holiday, short notice.

$179. Still not seeing "hundreds of dollars" here.

[clarky07]

i paid 600 for a rental this summer. it was a van, and it was pickup and dropoff in different locations, but there are certainly scenarios in which you need to spend hundreds of dollars on a rental car. Yes you can do it for cheaper, but that depends on location, time, special needs, etc.

[ryanhuff]

If you are going to be driving a considerable distance (500-700 miles) in a short amount of time (such as a long weekend trip), renting a car makes sense. I have done so a few times, at a cost of barely more than $100 each time.

[waterlesscloud]

You're really overstating the situation.

There are any number of two car households where one car is unsuitable for long family trips. Somehow they exist just fine.

[clarky07]

Yeah you can maybe make it work for a 2 car household getting 1 electric. I agree that renting is not even close to a reasonable option.

[pyoung]

I am not sure I agree with that. If you think about it, the gas costs for your trip are a wash, because you would be spending that money either way. However, with the amount of money that you saved on fuel with an electric (a few thousand dollars a year, roughly), that could offset the cost of renting a car for your long weekend trip (a few hundred dollars).

I do agree with you that the Tesla is not a mass market vehicle yet. But not because of the 450-mile trip issue. It is because most people/families should not (or cannot) be buying a $50,000 car, even if it means saving a few thousand dollars a year in fuel costs. It would take too long (if ever) to break even on the increased cost. Once EV's get down to more competitive prices, then it starts making more sense. However, if you have the cash, and you like the idea of the Tesla, then yes you should go for it, because without early adopters, Tesla could end up folding.

[stcredzero]

I regularly travel 450+ miles to visit family. Cannot use this.

What if someone made you a "range extender" module that attaches to the towing hitch? I'd design one on a detaching cart so no lifting would be involved to install.

[clarky07]

That might work. If I have to wait 30 minutes to charge (and not even a full charge) it has to have a longer initial range than gas. There is also the problem I mentioned above that the place you are going has to actually have a charging station as well, otherwise your range is cut in half. Can't got 250 miles if there isn't a charge there. Then you only get 125.

Finally, not sure how this works, but it seems that "running out of gas" would be a much bigger problem. Can't just get a tank of gas and bring it out to the car. I assume you have to get the car towed to charging station? Are there any other options? Any easy way (i.e. something I can carry) to get a charge away from home?

[stcredzero]

Finally, not sure how this works, but it seems that "running out of gas" would be a much bigger problem.

The scheme I was thinking about involved gas powered generators. So running out of gas is closer to the problem with a regular car.

[maxerickson]

It's slow:

http://www.teslamotors.com/roadster/charging/spare-mobile-co...

(They also have higher power options)

[hatcravat]

Hmm... it seems like the really sweet spot for this type of thing is one that could supply power while you drive. If it could deliver about 7 kW (a little more than the mains plug for a domestic dryer or oven or range), it would supply around 50% to 70% of the car's freeway power requirements. That would double or triple the range, from ~250 miles to ~750 miles.

[clarky07]

well, at least it exists. When going to family for the weekend, I could at least have it charged by time we go home. That being said, they'd have to let me have the garage, and we couldn't really use my car while there. Still a hassle, but it could be worse I guess.

[mcot2]

+1 for this. The cars which combine electric and gas make a lot more sense until we get to at least 5k range with electric. I'm not joking about that either... I routinely go over 5k miles on trips where plugging in for 5 hours would be problematic.

[pyoung]

uhhh, 5k is over 3 straight days of driving at highway speeds. It is longer than the distance between SF and NY. I highly doubt that EV's need to be optimized for these distances, as no one in their right mind would routinely go on trips of these lengths.

Hats off to you if you can put up with that much time in a car, but personally I would take a plane.

[mcot2]

Let's say I go on a trip to visit a friend for the weekend and his/her apt does not have an easily accessible electric outlet. Then let's say I drive while I am there and then drive home. This is a very very common scenario for me where I might rack up 1000 miles without being able to recharge.

I threw out the 5k number as something where I would be extremely confident I would never hit before being able to recharge, not as a number of miles I go frequently.