[redczar]

The less dependence on community started with desegregation. There used to be community pools and rec centers. Garbage pickup was a municipal service. Ambulances were free. These things and more all ended with desegregation. Now we live in a society in which people don’t walk and don’t have places in their neighborhood where others congregate. Kids rarely play in the street anymore. The notion of it taking a village gets laughed at and as you say get individualistic. We live in a deeply unhealthy society from a social standpoint of view.

[paulryanrogers]

Having talked to folks from the segregation era, you may be thinking of red-lining and white flight. As folks realized cities and schools were desegregating many moved out of urban environments to suburbs and rural areas, then excluded POC through zoning.

Even if we accept that as the primary cause (which I don't) that would mean cowardice and racism are the root cause. An irrational fear of people who don't look and talk like us.

[typewithrhythm]

You can't argue your way into making a homogeneous population.

The reality is that the groups are distinct, and immediately changes the dynamic from "a facility used and maintained by the group who established it", to "a facility maintained by a third party, to be shared". These do not have equal value to an individual.

[watwut]

The reality was that whites were disgusted over idea that black guy could swimm in the same pool as a white girl. It made them feel dirty. It was really that dynamic, not just abstract "who established it".

There is this knee jerk wish to constantly make that dynamic into something nicer or "normal outside of racist interactions". But, it is not. The same effect does not happen when two groups just merge.

[redczar]

Redlining and white flight definitely happened. It also happened that cities stopped funding municipal pools and other services. Things like Elks Lodges went into long term decline when women and blacks had to be admitted.

[paulryanrogers]

I don't deny white flight and red-lining happened, continues in some places, and is horrible. I'm not convinced that's the sole or even primary reason for modern loneliness.

> Things like Elks Lodges went into long term decline when women and blacks had to be admitted.

People don't need institutionalized racism and misogyny to make friends. They already have a right to be racist and privately associate / not associate.

[redczar]

I think you don’t understand what happened. When the laws were changed and forced communities to allow blacks to use municipal pools and when places like Elks Lodges were forced to accept women and minorities white men abandoned these things. Cities stopped funding municipal pools and membership in clubs drastically declined. White men gutted the idea of communal activity in response to civil rights.

[queenkjuul]

Yeah, surely the old white men's clubs were the only communities to be found

Sorry i find this whole line of reasoning absolutely asinine

[redczar]

It’s a historical fact what response to desegregation entailed. I agree that it was asinine. It’s stupid that we don’t have municipal trash service, free ambulances at point of usage, municipal pools, etc.

[BigGreenJorts]

> There used to be community pools and rec centers. Garbage pickup was a municipal service. Ambulances were free.

I live in place where this is still true. The rec centers are barely solvent and it's mostly retirees and summer camps (cheap daycare) that keeps them afloat.

[thayne]

> There used to be community pools and rec centers. Garbage pickup was a municipal service. Ambulances were free.

All of that is still true of everywhere I have lived in the US, except for the free ambulances. And I think the cost of ambulances has more to do with the evolution of health insurance in the US than desegregation.

[redczar]

Ambulances were a municipal service and insurance had nothing to do with them. The gutting of municipal services followed desegregation.

[thayne]

It absolutely has to do with insurance. Without insurance or government funding, ambulance service would be prohibitively expensive for most people.

The fact that in America health insurance is often part of worker compensation, meant that cities could transfer the cost of ambulances from taxes to insurance premiums.

[redczar]

Getting rid of municipal ambulance service did not occur for insurance reasons. It was gutted along with the gutting of municipal services in general. Insurance had nothing to do with why the service was cut.

[graemep]

If that was true it would only be a problem in the US. It is not. The same has happened where there never was segregation.

[typewithrhythm]

Desegregation coincided with the mass "multicultural" migration initiatives in the rest of the western world.

Unfortunately in reality there is a huge difference between a facility used by one group, and one shared between several. Many community facilities become unpleasant when they are anonymous.

[graemep]

Why does the presence of multiple ethnic groups make facilities anonymous? That would only be true if people never knew anyone of a different "race".

Immigration is only relevant if immigrant communities do not integrate. If it was the cause then you would expect a strong correlation between loneliness and populations of immigrant origin. It certainly does not leap out from a quick look at the numbers: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/wellbein...

The timing of the numbers in the paper do not match either. SOme of them happened in the last two years. A bit recent for desegregation to be a factor.

On the other hand the article does mention a lot of far more plausible possible causes: online only friendships, working hours, decline of religion etc.

[PessimalDecimal]

This same effect goes a long way to explaining the abandonment of public transit in the US, and strong preference for private travel in a car.

[Der_Einzige]

The idea that multiculturalism is incompatible with a harmonious society is empirically denied by the existence of basically utopias like Singapore. All citizens have to learn 4 languages and there is a huge amount of tourists which add to the already multicutral demographics of the country. Lowest crime in the world, best education in the world. Among the best public transit in the world, etc.

What it really is is that some minorities have shittier cultures than others, and some states have handled the integration and assimilation better than others.

Even the USA, for example, is blessed that nearly all of our illegals are Catholics (or more recently evangelical protestants...). Compare this to Europe where it's often muslims who try to bring their Burkas and sharia law with them.

The mass rise of latino voters for trump indicates a very strong effort from America's latino minorities to "act white", to "integrate", and to "assimilate".

I am fine with a multicultural society, as long as it's good culture - and yes, it is quite easy to nearly objectively quantify if a culture or cultural practice is good or not. For example, Americans except for asian americans don't wash their asses with bidets after using the toilet. This leads to swampass/BO, increased toilet paper usage/resource consumption, and far more rectal related health problems. America objectively should change it's cultural practices around bathroom usage.

Unfortunately, cultural critique against bad culture has a tendency for folks to call you "racist", so we aren't allowed to have this conversations with more specificity...

[graemep]

Singapore is not multicultural in the sense it is often used: different communities have to learn each others languages, as you said, for example. A huge effort was made to create a common identity.

This is very different from multicultural meaning groups having separate communities. That is de facto segregation.

" Compare this to Europe where it's often muslims who try to bring their Burkas and sharia law with them."

I think this is much exaggerated.

Its also not immigrant groups pushing Islamic fundamentalism as much as international funding and ideology that is global.

There are also groups (mostly white people!) who are politically committed to this multiculturalism vs integration.

[watwut]

While latinos voted for Trump a little more then last time, saying it was "the mass rise" is just a lie.

[Der_Einzige]

No, it is NOT a lie. Latino men had a HUGE shift. Trump won 54% of latino men. This was an over 20 point shift in ONE election. He won 39% of latino women. YOU are lying by even implying that it was a "minor" change. Please educate yourself before spewing lies on the internet. 46% of latino voters in general voted for Trump.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-elections/exit-polls

The reality is that the sheep voted for the wolves - mostly because the sheep hate the other sheep, and wanted the wolves to eat those other sheep - hoping they'd ignore themselves.

The only group who voted more for Harris than biden, demographically, was white women - specifically old white women.

[zeryx]

It is though, in the English speaking world - to to Latin America or southern asia, anti-social behavior is treated like the disease it is

[redczar]

It possible but unlikely that there are different causes of the multiple instances of the problem. Maybe different societies had different catalysts.

[rendang]

Which area are you speaking about, exactly?