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by gman83 438 days ago
It reminds me of people who won't eat certain foods because it contains "too many chemicals".
2 comments

Except we know certain chemicals are harmful, and we have no idea about the long term effects of many others. We also have a history of using materials we don’t understand and only stopping after it kills or harms enough people.
The problem with this worldview is that it dramatically underestimates the harm of "natural" products compared to "artificial" products.

You see, if it's fermented grape juice, it's "natural", and so it's a complex flavor profile. But if you actually list out what's in it, it's a lot of toxic chemicals banned as food additives, and synthetic wine is illegal as a result. And you can't omit the egregiously toxic stuff because it makes the test came out wrong.

Your assumptions about beverage law are dead wrong. "Synthetic wine", whatever you mean by that, is not "illegal". And beverage makers actually have much more freedom than ordinary food makers in their choices of ingredients.
Synthetic wine is the name for people who are trying to create wine from its chemical ingredients rather than from the natural process of fermentation.

There was an article several years back about one of these groups trying to get regulatory approval to sell their product, and the stumbling block was the use of things that weren't approved additives. (I want to say it was tannins, since that's the most overtly problematic chemical in wine, but it has been several years since I've seen the article, so I could be mixing it up for one of the other carcinogens involved).

You mean like caffeine and fried animal fat? :D
My point wasn't that there are no naturally occurring harms, but that foods which on their own are otherwise considered safe may take on a different safety profile when altered depending on the nature of that alteration.

e.g. we're beginning to realize that eating highly processed meats on a regular basis can cause GI problems/cancer in the long run while eating some of the components individually and prepared differently does not.

you just sound like an anti-vaxer, one of those UPF fearmongering cultists.
There’s a big difference between a real strawberry and a vat of chemicals called strawberries.
A real strawberry contains many times more chemicals. The chemistry of a strawberry is like alien technology compared to our primitive science.
Seems akin to the Ship of Theseus.

Is an entirely artificial--but indistinguishable down to the atomic level--strawberry not a strawberry?

When we have the ability to replicate strawberries at the atomic level, then I’d grant you this point.

We presently do not, and the market is filled with products calling themselves one thing while in reality being in essence a vat full of chemicals.

My point was that strawberries are a vat of chemicals.
But surely you’d agree that “vat of chemicals” is not the only metric by which to evaluate a substance, and that not all vats of chemicals are strawberries.

You can play this game with everything that exists. Everything is just a concoction of atoms. But some arrangements of atoms result in nuclear weapons. Others make up the breakfast I ate this morning.

The fact that they’re all just atoms doesn’t mean they share other properties like: safe to eat, tastes good to humans, etc.

apples contain amygdalin and cyanide, theoretically lab-grown apples that exclude these are far better for you than wild/farmed apples.
> But surely you’d agree that “vat of chemicals” is not the only metric by which to evaluate a substance

So you're positing a spiritual or etherial nature for strawberries? Such that pure materialism is inadequate to address?

> , and that not all vats of chemicals are strawberries.

Yeah, this is elementary logic really. All A are B does not imply that all B are A.

> Everything is just a concoction of atoms.

yes, exactly. So what is the difference between an artificial and a natural arrangement of the atoms, if they are otherwise the same?

> The fact that they’re all just atoms doesn’t mean they share other properties like: safe to eat, tastes good to humans, etc.

Yes, which is why this wasn't my point.

How about diamonds? We are able to make diamonds and yet people prefer naturally created ones for some reason.
I think this is somewhat beside the point.

Going back to where this started, many people feel uncomfortable consuming products that contain chemicals added by humans/corporations.

Whether or not this concern is fully justified is a fair point to debate. If we could perfectly replicate the ideal strawberry down to the molecular level, said strawberry shouldn’t be a concern, even for people who go out of their way to avoid food additives.

People value diamonds for an entirely different reason. What they value is the narrative behind the diamond. Its (supposed) rareness, and the fact that natural forces produced something beautiful. There are also still echoes of hundreds/thousands of years of culture that placed a high value on them before science could replicate them.

But ultimately I think this is all orthogonal to the strawberry situation. The reasons someone does or does not want to eat a truly perfect strawberry replica will be very different from the reasons someone values a diamond.

Lab grown diamonds start with a diamond seed which comes from the earth (you can use a synthetic seed later on).
Which is irrelevant to the question.
Strawberry flavored sour candy is not the ship of strawberries you seek.
Strawberry flavored candy is easily distinguishable from a real strawberry.