[cess11]

Maybe if you explained that supposed complexity and didn't stop at an ad hominem argument your first parapgraph might have had some weight, but you didn't.

There is very little complexity to the "conflict". A political movement supported by antisemites wanting to get rid of jews at home established a state through displacement and eradication of the indigenous population. This state has continued applying these kinds of policies to the indigenous population and neighbouring states, and is dependent on foreign aid and the atrocious pillage of other countries, e.g. to support israeli diamond exports.

After the second world war there was an informal consensus that states that participate in genocide do not deserve sovereignty, a position that has since been eroded, in part by the main supplier of the israeli occupation. I understand how people that grow up in fiercely chauvinist and expansionist societies that are groomed since preschool to participate in military apartheid activities have trouble resisting these, which is why I don't believe israeli society can be a part of the solution to its occupation in the short term.

[Protostome]

You literally went after someone just because they’re Israeli-could be my friend, coworker, or even me. If you single someone out like that, don’t be shocked when you get called out in return. And honestly, I’m not convinced my previous comment even counts as a real ad hominem-though sure, if it makes you feel better, let’s call it that.

But let's get one thing straight: calling the Arabs in Israel/Palestine "indigenous" while dismissing the Jewish people’s claim to that land is laughable. The very name "Jew" comes from Judea—this same strip of land-where Jewish history stretches back millennia. I’m not saying Arab families who lived there never had rights; of course, they deserve their own country too. But the idea that they’re the only "indigenous" group is just another cheap piece of propaganda, right up there with labeling the whole situation as "genocide" or "apartheid". People have moved in and out of Israel/Judea for centuries. Plenty of folks calling themselves Palestinian today came around the same time as the Zionists or later-just look at the family names that point to places like Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and beyond Al-Baghdadi, Al-Masri (the Egyptian), Halabi (Haleb = Allepo, Syria), Hourani (from Houran in southern Syria), Tzurani (from Tyre in southern Lebanon), Hijazi (from the Hijaz province of the Arabian peninsula), Mughrabi (from the Maghreb). Hell, Arafat was born in Egypt.

My basic point is this: both sides do actually have claims. But one side made it pretty clear they weren’t interested in compromise and resorted to terror against civilians, starting way back in the ‘60s. Naturally, the other side fought back, and things escalated.

As for calling Israeli society "chauvinist", give me a break. Israel had a female prime minister in the ’70s, has had women on its Supreme Court since forever, and meanwhile the U.S. is still waiting on its first female president. So, yeah-save the grandstanding about "chauvinism". It’s not as black-and-white as you’re painting it, and if you’re going to throw punches, don’t whine when you get punched back.

[runarberg]

> The International Labour Organization's (ILO) Indigenous and Tribal Peoples Convention, 1989 (ILO Convention No. 169), states that the convention covers:

>> peoples in independent countries who are regarded as indigenous on account of their descent from the populations which inhabited the country, or a geographical region to which the country belongs, at the time of conquest or colonisation or the establishment of present state boundaries and who, irrespective of their legal status, retain some or all of their own social, economic, cultural and political institutions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples

> Several states do not recognize indigenous ethnic minorities within their territories as being indigenous peoples, and simply refer to them as ethnic minorities. Many of these ethnic minorities are marginalized from the majority ethnic population in relative social, economic and political performance measures, and their indigenous rights are poorly protected.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_on_the_Rights_of_I...

Note that Israel merely abstained from voting on the latter, rather then voting against like Canada, The US and Australia did (while 143 voted in favor).

The case here is pretty clear cut. By most measures which actually matter for the rights of indigenous people, Palestinians are indigenous to Palestine, while most Israelis are settlers, or close descendants of settlers who gained control over the lands through conquest and colonization.

It is in fact very reasonable to dismiss the (European) Jewish people’s claim to the land if we are talking about legal claims to indigenous peoples. Even though no clear definition has been widely adopted (perhaps for the better) most of the umbrella terms capture Palestinians, and hardly any captures Israelis. Denying the Palestinian claims to their indigenous lands is very much the behavior that the Decleration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples sought to stop.

[cess11]

To add to this, the zionist movement also attacks jewish ethnicities and seeks to replace them with a new, modern identity. This is why they have a problem with yiddish and seek to replace it with an invented modern language, sometimes engage in Holocaust revisionism, are in constant tension with the haredim, used terrorism and similar tactics to try and force jews to move to Israel, and so on.

It follows from this view that the historical jews were weak, impure due to assimilation, 'freyers', which is why they were persecuted and subjected to genocide, and the new, zionist, jew is strong, muscular and will always make someone else the 'freyer'. And, as many zionists see it, will also be on the frontlines in the final struggle of the endtimes, where they will absorb the brunt of the violence and then convert to protestant christianity if they survive.

[cess11]

No, I did not. I "went after someone" because they have willingly contributed to atrocities. I don't think you should be doing business with people related to the al-Jolani or UAE regimes either, and if you do business in those territories it should be in support of resistance movements.

If you are israeli and support the state of Israel, well, yeah, then I think people ought to try and make you uncomfortable until you stop.

The palestinian indigeneity is much broader than the arabic language. There is no "Jewish people's claim", there is a zionist claim, i.e. a claim from a movement that mostly consists of christians, unless enough hindus have come to support it to outnumber them. Most of the foreign funding would still be from christians, I think. Either way, the territorial claims have little basis in either history or religion, it's an entirely modern idea that fused british and zionist colonial ambitions in the region with antisemitism, and later was inherited by the US.

You have a very colonial outlook, by the way. You look at this and think of people as "Arab", as if the people displaced by Israel that got their homes and homelands eradicated would be the same as people in Morocco or Sudan. It's fine to just drive them away and murder them, because something something Judea, and the empire needs a military presence to offset challenges to its oil extraction.

The zionists brought terrorism to the region and invented parts of modern terrorist tactics, things like market bombings. Palestinians have compromised, while the state of Israel has refused to and systematically murders its negotiating partners and attacks other neighbouring countries. The palestinians got nothing for their compromises, while Hamas has had some success with armed resistance, which, under occupation, is a right.

Israel mainly attacks palestinian civilians, while palestinian militants have for decades tried to avoid civilian harm. This is why the suicide bombings stopped, for example. Israel is also not a democracy, and is illegitimate on this fact alone.

I think the US is severely chauvinist as well. That "female prime minister" infamously said that she could never forgive the palestinians for resisting displacement and murder, and thus "force" the zionists to murder palestinian children.

The zionist occupations are atrocious and criminal. This isn't a grey zone, it's clear from international law and basic morality. You don't get to eradicate people and societies in this way. It was wrong when the russians did it to the circassians, it's wrong when christians and jews do it to the palestinians and lebanese. There are no excuses, and can be no excuses.

[Protostome]

First off, to claim that "Palestinian militants have tried for decades to avoid civilian harm" is beyond absurd. Explain the deliberate massacres like the one at the music festival on October 7th—hundreds of unarmed civilians gunned down without mercy, no "selectiveness" involved whatsoever. Are we supposed to believe that’s "avoiding civilian harm"? That’s an absolute joke. Also, those tens of thousands of rockets fired for over two decades are not exactly precision guided missles. They are very much aware that those rockets can fall anywhere - schools, homes and streets.

Second, saying there’s "no Jewish claim" to the land is straight-up ignorance. There is actually "Jewish claim", you just are not familiar with it. Jews have prayed in the direction of Jerusalem for thousands of years, many prayrs have a part about the return to Israeli homeland (here is one example - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Shana_Haba%27ah). It’s part of the jewish daily practice, woven into the very fabric of jewish identity. Meanwhile, Muslims face Mecca—not Jerusalem. Deny it all you want, but the Jewish connection to this place is ancient, tangible, and undeniable.

And let’s talk about your so-called "colonial outlook." Do you even realize Palestinians self-identify as Arabs? the Middle East is historically tribal and ethnic in its identification. This isn’t some "Western" lens; it’s how people in the region actually see themselves. Ironically, you’re the one imposing a worldview that simplifies everyone into a one-size-fits-all label, acting like it’s morally superior to note these distinctions.

Finally, about this "occupation" nonsense: the land in question was under British control—not owned by any Palestinian state—before Israel’s establishment. There was a U.N. partition plan, one side accepted it, the other side went to war and lost. That’s not some mythical, twisted story—it’s documented history. If you start a war and lose, don’t be shocked that you don’t get to dictate the terms afterward.

Honestly, the sheer amount of mental gymnastics required to frame Israel as pure evil while ignoring the endless terror attacks and outright massacres by Palestinian militant groups is staggering. You’re the one excusing atrocities by claiming they’re a "right" under occupation. It’s as if civilian lives only matter when you they are on your side of the political divide

[cess11]

Apparently you haven't watched any footage from those events. If you had, you'd have noticed that the unorganised second wave consisted of rather confused people mulling around, not knowing what to do, and that mostly they tried to take hostages and prisoners. There is evidence of some cruelty, like a grenade thrown into a shelter, but "hundreds of unarmed civilians gunned down without mercy" just doesn't hold water.

In total 364 corpses were found, including cops and irregular combatants and so on. It's unknown how many of those were Hellfire:d, likely a rather large portion judging from the photos of the aftermath where you can see pretty much every car at the location having been blown up by helicopter.

At the very least it was nothing like the deep cruelty and genocidal mania of the occupation forces. They use snipers to systematically target small children, as you should know.

Palestinians commonly ask 'where are the arabs?' when they're crying and desperate in the aftermath of some israeli atrocity. It is because there is very little community among the arab populations in the Middle East that has allowed for Iran to help supply and train armed resistance groups in Palestine. Palestinians know this better than you or I do.

Last summer the ICJ published their considerations regarding the occupation and deemed it illegal and demanded that it ends immediately. A year ago they found it plausible that Israel is committing genocide and ordered the state to stop with possibly genocidal actions. Consistently and regularly israeli pundits and politicians are confessing to genocide on national television, the Internet and so on. Here's the defense minister in a recent speech:

"Residents of Gaza, this is your final warning. The first Sinwar destroyed Gaza, and the second Sinwar will bring upon it total ruin. The Israeli Air Force's attack against Hamas terrorists was only the first step. What follows will be far harsher, and you will bear the full cost.

Evacuation of the population from combat zones will soon resume. If all Israeli hostages are not released and Hamas is not kicked out of Gaza, Israel will act with force you have not known before.

Take the advice of the U.S. President: return the hostages and kick out Hamas, and new options will open up for you—including relocation to other parts of the world for those who choose. The alternative is destruction and total devastation."

This isn't aimed solely at the palestinians, Israel is doing the same in Lebanon, where they destroy crops and forests with illegal weapons like phosphor bombs, and they systematically destroy homes, historical monuments and infrastructure. They also occupy lebanese territory, and they occupy Syrian territory. Currently they are also in breach of the peace agreement with Egypt. It is a criminal, expansionist state. This is surely evil. If it's pure evil? I don't know, don't care, that difference doesn't mean anything to me.

[Protostome]

There are so many accounts of Hamas militants executing innocent people from that event. Here is one: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67105618

Here is two: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/videos/toi-original/watc...

Should I go on? There are so many... I think it holds water pretty well, doesn't it?

[cess11]

That's one video with material from the Nova festival, and no, as you can see, the palestinian ran after them for quite some distance rather than just kill them. It is unclear whether he tried to take hostages or not.

I've also explained that this event was unorganised and spontaneous, it wasn't an organised resistance activity such as I meant above.

To me this material prompts the wish for justice, with due process and so on, but you apparently believe it excuses occupation and genocide. I don't think we'll reach common ground here, in part because you also seem to think it should be fine to go on a molly roll next to a concentration camp and not risk harm.