[jacooper]

You are saying this as if the founder is a normal civilian. The guy served in unit 8200 and 81 around the beginning of the 2000s(Second Intifada, first g a z a war, if not more), and overstayed his mandatory service.

This isn't a normal company, just like every Israeli security "startup" with founders coming from idf intelligence units.

Even ignoring this, 32b for such a company just doesn't make sense.

[shilgapira]

Of course the founder is a normal civilian. Israel has mandatory conscription so you'd expect any normal civilian to also have served in the IDF at some point.

It might sound weird to people from the US and many other western nations. Most people there aren't concerned with serving in the military - they either leave it to working class folks to serve, or they don't really have any neighboring enemies.

The Israelis aren't as privileged unfortunately. Israel requires all its citizens to serve so that its military is large enough and strong enough to defend against attacks from the many regressive and murderous regimes that surround it, or even better, deter them from even trying to attack.

[jacooper]

Even if we took mandatory service as an excuse to serve for an occupation army, the guy overstayed his mandatory service, he chose to continue working in that intelligence unit.

[shilgapira]

Why wouldn't he make that choice?

I don't know where you live, but he lives in a country that's surrounded by theocratic dictatorships, failed states, and Islamist terrorists who livestream murders and kidnappings.

His choice seems perfectly rational to me.

[jacooper]

I can derail the conversation just like you are trying to but I'm going to keep it short.

This guy isn't a normal innocent civilian, that's my point.

[Protostome]

Yes, the world is a very simple, non-complex system. People can be either child killing monsters or complete saints.

[cess11]

Ami Luttwak apparently liked the first category enough to become a Talpiot program graduate and hence deepen his ties to it.

[Protostome]

I struggle to see the issue here. Your perspective remains extremely polarized, regardless of the individual involved. You fail to grasp the conflict’s complexity and, as a result, demonize everyone associated with it. Just because someone joins the Israeli army doesn’t mean they endorse every action taken by Israel;

They enlist because they understand that, Israel being such a small country won't exist without an army. Now you may not care, or even endorse such a development. But you can't blame someone who lived there all their lives and has families and friends all over the country to think and act the same.

[cess11]

Maybe if you explained that supposed complexity and didn't stop at an ad hominem argument your first parapgraph might have had some weight, but you didn't.

There is very little complexity to the "conflict". A political movement supported by antisemites wanting to get rid of jews at home established a state through displacement and eradication of the indigenous population. This state has continued applying these kinds of policies to the indigenous population and neighbouring states, and is dependent on foreign aid and the atrocious pillage of other countries, e.g. to support israeli diamond exports.

After the second world war there was an informal consensus that states that participate in genocide do not deserve sovereignty, a position that has since been eroded, in part by the main supplier of the israeli occupation. I understand how people that grow up in fiercely chauvinist and expansionist societies that are groomed since preschool to participate in military apartheid activities have trouble resisting these, which is why I don't believe israeli society can be a part of the solution to its occupation in the short term.

[Protostome]

You literally went after someone just because they’re Israeli-could be my friend, coworker, or even me. If you single someone out like that, don’t be shocked when you get called out in return. And honestly, I’m not convinced my previous comment even counts as a real ad hominem-though sure, if it makes you feel better, let’s call it that.

But let's get one thing straight: calling the Arabs in Israel/Palestine "indigenous" while dismissing the Jewish people’s claim to that land is laughable. The very name "Jew" comes from Judea—this same strip of land-where Jewish history stretches back millennia. I’m not saying Arab families who lived there never had rights; of course, they deserve their own country too. But the idea that they’re the only "indigenous" group is just another cheap piece of propaganda, right up there with labeling the whole situation as "genocide" or "apartheid". People have moved in and out of Israel/Judea for centuries. Plenty of folks calling themselves Palestinian today came around the same time as the Zionists or later-just look at the family names that point to places like Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and beyond Al-Baghdadi, Al-Masri (the Egyptian), Halabi (Haleb = Allepo, Syria), Hourani (from Houran in southern Syria), Tzurani (from Tyre in southern Lebanon), Hijazi (from the Hijaz province of the Arabian peninsula), Mughrabi (from the Maghreb). Hell, Arafat was born in Egypt.

My basic point is this: both sides do actually have claims. But one side made it pretty clear they weren’t interested in compromise and resorted to terror against civilians, starting way back in the ‘60s. Naturally, the other side fought back, and things escalated.

As for calling Israeli society "chauvinist", give me a break. Israel had a female prime minister in the ’70s, has had women on its Supreme Court since forever, and meanwhile the U.S. is still waiting on its first female president. So, yeah-save the grandstanding about "chauvinism". It’s not as black-and-white as you’re painting it, and if you’re going to throw punches, don’t whine when you get punched back.

[runarberg]

> The International Labour Organization's (ILO) Indigenous and Tribal Peoples Convention, 1989 (ILO Convention No. 169), states that the convention covers:

>> peoples in independent countries who are regarded as indigenous on account of their descent from the populations which inhabited the country, or a geographical region to which the country belongs, at the time of conquest or colonisation or the establishment of present state boundaries and who, irrespective of their legal status, retain some or all of their own social, economic, cultural and political institutions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples

> Several states do not recognize indigenous ethnic minorities within their territories as being indigenous peoples, and simply refer to them as ethnic minorities. Many of these ethnic minorities are marginalized from the majority ethnic population in relative social, economic and political performance measures, and their indigenous rights are poorly protected.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_on_the_Rights_of_I...

Note that Israel merely abstained from voting on the latter, rather then voting against like Canada, The US and Australia did (while 143 voted in favor).

The case here is pretty clear cut. By most measures which actually matter for the rights of indigenous people, Palestinians are indigenous to Palestine, while most Israelis are settlers, or close descendants of settlers who gained control over the lands through conquest and colonization.

It is in fact very reasonable to dismiss the (European) Jewish people’s claim to the land if we are talking about legal claims to indigenous peoples. Even though no clear definition has been widely adopted (perhaps for the better) most of the umbrella terms capture Palestinians, and hardly any captures Israelis. Denying the Palestinian claims to their indigenous lands is very much the behavior that the Decleration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples sought to stop.

[cess11]

No, I did not. I "went after someone" because they have willingly contributed to atrocities. I don't think you should be doing business with people related to the al-Jolani or UAE regimes either, and if you do business in those territories it should be in support of resistance movements.

If you are israeli and support the state of Israel, well, yeah, then I think people ought to try and make you uncomfortable until you stop.

The palestinian indigeneity is much broader than the arabic language. There is no "Jewish people's claim", there is a zionist claim, i.e. a claim from a movement that mostly consists of christians, unless enough hindus have come to support it to outnumber them. Most of the foreign funding would still be from christians, I think. Either way, the territorial claims have little basis in either history or religion, it's an entirely modern idea that fused british and zionist colonial ambitions in the region with antisemitism, and later was inherited by the US.

You have a very colonial outlook, by the way. You look at this and think of people as "Arab", as if the people displaced by Israel that got their homes and homelands eradicated would be the same as people in Morocco or Sudan. It's fine to just drive them away and murder them, because something something Judea, and the empire needs a military presence to offset challenges to its oil extraction.

The zionists brought terrorism to the region and invented parts of modern terrorist tactics, things like market bombings. Palestinians have compromised, while the state of Israel has refused to and systematically murders its negotiating partners and attacks other neighbouring countries. The palestinians got nothing for their compromises, while Hamas has had some success with armed resistance, which, under occupation, is a right.

Israel mainly attacks palestinian civilians, while palestinian militants have for decades tried to avoid civilian harm. This is why the suicide bombings stopped, for example. Israel is also not a democracy, and is illegitimate on this fact alone.

I think the US is severely chauvinist as well. That "female prime minister" infamously said that she could never forgive the palestinians for resisting displacement and murder, and thus "force" the zionists to murder palestinian children.

The zionist occupations are atrocious and criminal. This isn't a grey zone, it's clear from international law and basic morality. You don't get to eradicate people and societies in this way. It was wrong when the russians did it to the circassians, it's wrong when christians and jews do it to the palestinians and lebanese. There are no excuses, and can be no excuses.

[ignoramous]

> People can be either child killing monsters or complete saints.

That's not OP's claim? Although, I'd expect anyone who claims to be G-d's chosen people (religious fundamentalists pretty much anywhere) to anoint themselves saints. The corner stone for the kind of supremacist race/culture theories popular not so long ago.

No one's fault that a nation conscripts all its adults into what some (I don't) perceive as "killing machine" (especially, post 1967). Those adults could refuse, but most don't, for whatever reason. Post WW2, there's a general disgust for war and its proponents, regardless of who or where; except these folks who are even celebrated in tech / US.

> the world is a very simple, non-complex system

  "I hated the notion of occupation since the very beginning. My first memories from after the 67 war are travelling with my children in the occupied territories. There were awnings over groceries stores with Hebrew lettering advertising Osem noodles. I couldn't bear it. I thought that was dreadful because I remembered German lettering in France. I have very strong feelings about Israel as an occupier."

And that scathing (Nazi Germany's occupation of France) comparison comes from Danny Kahneman (who, ironically, played his part in the "killing machine" himself). https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jul/18/daniel-kahnema...

[jacooper]

Correction, all co-founders and a lot of staff come from unit 8200 Typical Israeli security "startup".

[tdeck]

In Israel, a "normal civilian" sees the Sde Teiman video and thinks "those soldiers are heroes".

[shilgapira]

Would you have written the same sentence only with "China" and "Tiananmen Square"?

It's really interesting to see these small mask-off moments when relatively veteran HN users allow themselves to indulge in such obvious bigotry as this comment.

Weird how you only really see this happening when the post has some relation to the Jewish state.

[tdeck]

Nothing you wrote actually refutes my point that these people not only escaped consequences, but they were protected by rioters and then becane celebrities in the Israeli late night circuit. Remind me which other countries had a debate in their parliament about whether it was OK to gang r*ape a prisoner in the rectum and send them to the hospital? When countries commit atrocities like that it's normal for there to be backlash.

Apparently it's a mask off moment to notice these things? Or maybe you should examine why you think they're normal.

[gryzzly]

Did you dig deep into what Syrian regime did to Syrians? What about Russian atrocities? Not to mention Sudan. Maybe you were defending Yezidis? I doubt you ever mentioned any war crimes in any of these conflicts.

[cess11]

The israeli impunity has likely made Russia more ruthless in Ukraine, with for example attacks on hospitals. Sudan is an interesting example to bring up, since the RSF is closely connected with Israel's friends in the UAE, and the UAE has recently asked the US to help them avoid responsibility for what they've done.

The Assad regime clinged to power in part in the way it did because it was what Israel preferred, israeli elites have been very afraid of what would follow the fall of Assad, which is likely why they've bombed Syria more or less constantly since then and occupies a large portion of the country. In the West many people believe the Assad dynasty to have been a clean iranian asset, but this isn't true. Bashar had good relations with security services in many other countries, and was one recipient of people collected by the US for torture during the so called War on Terror. Besides Beirut and possibly Amman it's likely Damascus was the most important spy hub in the region.

The fate of Syria is an enormous tragedy, that could likely have been avoided.

[gryzzly]

as I assumed, any evil in the world is because of jews (and their "friends") in your eyes. Was it also the jews who made Russia ruthless in Chechnya? How about Gulag? Must have been Israel’s fault! And what about the Khmer Rouge? I’m sure you will find a jewish trace there. Thanks for clarifying, but be aware your hate is always transparent to some.

[weatherlite]

I don't know if it's true but I do know for sure America has killed at least 100x more civilians than Israel has in wars that were in no way needed or existential (Vietnam, Iraq x2) and yet no one on his right mind would demonize ordinary Americans and imply they are all bloodthirsty Nazis to be persecuted everywhere they step on earth.

[tdeck]

> I don't know if it's true

There are polls about this that you could easily look up. Is your position that if most Israelis affirmatively support atrocities like this, the rest of the world should just pretend like we never saw that?

> America has killed at least 100x more civilians than Israel has

These aren't mutually exclusive. Israel is one of America's proxies. I'd support the international community putting sanctions on the US to put a stop to these things, but unfortunately it's not likely to happen because the US is the world's largest superpower and controls the global reserve currency, so it can operate with a degree of impunity. Is that a good situation, that you want to replicate around the world?

> no one on his right mind would demonize ordinary Americans

When the overwhelming majority of a country supports committing atrocities, it's not "demonizing" them to point that out.

> to be persecuted everywhere they step on earth.

Apparently it's "persecution" when people say that enthusiastically participating in a genocidal ethno-state's secret police means your company shouldn't get 32 billion dollars.

[weatherlite]

> Is your position that if most Israelis affirmatively support atrocities like this, the rest of the world should just pretend like we never saw that?

If the world should generalize over entire populations groups according to some poll then it should at least be consistent and not do it only to Israelis. If I find a poll that shows most Palestinians support October 7th would you immediately denounce every Gazan you talk to? It's also quite obvious many Gazans agreed not only with October 7th but also with the subsequent treatment of the Israeli hostages (which is a type of long lasting torture). Most of these hostages were/are simply kidnapped civilians, the ones you talk about in Sdei Teiman were most likely Hamas fighters connected to extreme cases of violence and terrorism. So there's more nuance here than you make it out to be. I personally think if anyone sexually abused them they should be thrown in jail but I can see why many Israelis have their hearts filled with hatred toward Hamas fighters. It's the job of the state to maintain rule of law.

[cess11]

No, there isn't. There is exactly zero nuance in phenomena like death camps, torture camps and the systematic murder and torture of children and so on. If this is something you engage in, then you cannot be expected to be treated as a sane, full person. If you do this, or defend this, then you should expect harsh resistance, because that is a legitimate and ethical response.

It is telling that your fantasy about "Hamas fighters connected to extreme cases of violence and terrorism" helps you accept and tolerate systematic sexual abuse of palestinian men, but you don't draw similar conclusions from the actual, real, bombing of small children starving in haphazard tents. The palestinians do not have the capability to do "extreme violence", they just don't have the materials and tools and suppliers needed, because they suffer under occupation or in refugee camps.

The reason most jewish israelis are fine with the crimes their state is committing is not the palestinians themselves, which have a right to resist the occupation violently.

[weatherlite]

> The palestinians do not have the capability to do "extreme violence", they just don't have the materials and tools and suppliers needed, because they suffer under occupation or in refugee camps.

They did. They used that capacity to kill as many people as they could - they reached around 1200 people (+ 250 more kidnapped - many of whom died later) which is not a lack of capacity, and then the war started. Now they have much degraded capacity which is probably a good thing for Israeli civilians. If the Palestinian had a greater capacity to kill on October 7th they would have used it.