[mixedCase]

That's way too expensive for an "affordable EV".

The BYD Seagull retails here in Uruguay for less than that and we tax cars at about 100%. On China it seems to go for 10-12k.

It's a proper, basic city car. 4 to 6 air bags, ~300km range (more than what this article's car indicates), all basic security features and standard gadgets out of a modern car.

Our EV infrastructure is not viable if you don't have a charger at work/home and yet these have sold like hot cakes.

Legacy carmakers are making increasingly worse ICE cars for the most part (btw does GM sell a C-segment hatchback on any market, anymore?) and their EVs are simply uncompetitive. What's it going to take for them to wake up to the fact they're going to have to stop fleecing their customers with crappy products? Bankruptcy?

[mattmaroon]

It's too expensive for an affordable EV in half the world I am sure. The wealthier half of the world will never let Chinese auto makers in. China wants to do the same thing they've done with other manufacturing, use government subsidies, borderline slave labor, and artifically low currency to eat the market and kill everyone else's manufacturing capacity until they have the market entirely.

There's no way we let that happen to cars. China's average auto worker pay is $4.20 an hour. America's is 6x that. What you call fleecing customers we call paying workers a living wage.

We'd rather pay $25k for a cheap EV and have a thriving auto industry than pay $10k and have none. We'd happily choose paying more for cars over Latin America-style wealth inequality, though lately it seems as if we're going to manage both at the same time.

[AlotOfReading]

Autoworker salaries have very little effect on the price of cars. The final assembly labor costs are a single digit percentage of the sale price. The corporate workers (myself included) are about the same again, despite being a much smaller percentage of the workforce.

The majority of costs are just the price of raw materials and manufacturing anything, whether in the US or abroad. What Chinese OEMs are doing isn't anything secret, it's just optimizing the other things to hit those price targets. Cutting out dealerships, better value engineering, lower executive/corporate salaries and benefits, cheaper electronics, limited features, vertical integration, and most importantly being willing to sell lower margin vehicles.

[Mengkudulangsat]

Every single expense in your P&L is ultimately salaries.

If it's not salaries in your P&L, then it's salaries in your supplier's P&L, or salaries your supplier's supplier's P&L.

[AlotOfReading]

Once you get more than a couple layers down in the supply chain, it's the same workers being paid the same wages for both American and foreign OEMs. The "labor price" of the same grade steel isn't vastly different for BYD and GM.

[Fruitmaniac]

Raw materials costs are mostly based on scarcity, not salaries. If it weren't, steel would cost more that gold because it goes through more processing.

[adrianN]

Scarcity means that you require more work to mine the same amount of material.

[wqaatwt]

I’m not sure that’s necessarily true (or at all relevant) for a lot of precious or rate materials like gold. I don’t really know but I’d bet that gold requires much, much less labor to process than steel.

It’s just much more scarce so the people who own the mines can charge more for it.

[ivell]

There is also economies of scale. Steel is much more useful than gold. This means investments on improving mining and processing will lower the costs in the long run.

[Epa095]

You forgot energy.

[mattmaroon]

It's not just that, though I'm sure the American/European car makers are still in the $1,000+ range in extra labor costs.

China's subsidized their EV market with tens of billions directly. On top of that, they subsidize critical components and materials. They also keep their currency artifically devalued.

An American comnpany could do everything BYD does and still not come remotely close on price.

[xnx]

GM's health-care costs average $1500 per vehicle.

[AlotOfReading]

Those numbers are two decades old. Shortly after they were made public there was a union negotiation with UAW where new employees were permitted to have far fewer healthcare and retirement benefits. It's been 20 years and GM has maintained a regular cadence of layoffs and buyouts for tenured workers, so the modern workforce is almost entirely those much cheaper employees.

[sandworm101]

And much reduced dividend payments. It is the difference between prioritizing market share over profits. Where an American company sees profits as an end goal, a Chinese manufacturer sees profits as a tool to enable expansion and development. One is working for shareholders, the other to advance national goals.

[nickff]

Many American companies have reinvested their revenue into R&D; notable large examples include Google and Amazon. I rode a Waymo today!

[decimalenough]

Your figures are way out of date. The average Chinese auto worker now earns 21900 CNY/month, or about $36000/year. Even the low end is ~$15k.

https://www.salaryexplorer.com/average-salary-wage-compariso...

Also, Chinese manufacturers will do the same as Japanese and Korean manufacturers before them: work around tariffs by building assembly plants in the US and Europe.

[dyauspitr]

Those numbers seem like the average for an auto plant manager. Seems like most of the rank and file make around $11-15,000/yr.

[ivell]

Cost of living is an important consideration. I dont know why people are comparing absolute values here. Wages are relative to cost of living.

[Numerlor]

That's not too far off what people earn here, in an EU country with cars as our main export

[Ancapistani]

> Also, Chinese manufacturers will do the same as Japanese and Korean manufacturers before them: work around tariffs by building assembly plants in the US and Europe.

That's literally the stated purpose of Trump's tariffs, though.

It's not about hurting the Chinese. That's a bonus in some cases, sure, but the stated purpose is to encourage US economic growth in the industrial sector.

If BYD starts building factories in the US to hire American workers and sell to American consumers, Trump would be bringing it up every time he saw a microphone.

[BenFranklin100]

Says you. Poorer people in the United Stares would LOVE to have the option for a 10K car. It would really help their standard of living.

I’m happy for you that you can afford to plop $25K down for a car.

[rconti]

We've decided we'd prefer to mandate tons of "lifesaving" technology in new cars. Nevermind that it pushes poorer people into old rust buckets, and due to risk homeostasis and the false sense of security that comes with driving a safe/quiet/competent car, people who _can_ afford new cars manage to find worse and worse ways to crash... that's without getting into the awful consequences of cars you can't see out of, "safety features" that numb people to the driving experience, and so on...

[adrianN]

Driving has become _a lot_ safer in the recent decades. But the problem is not the technology that we require new cars to have, but the city planning that makes owning a car pretty much mandatory in large parts of the country.

[BenFranklin100]

I’ve hypothesized that more expensive cars resulting from safety and environmental mandates might make it harder for poor people to have reliable transportation to and from work. This leads to lower incomes, which are strongly correlated with worse health outcomes.

Someone would need to do a study to test if this were true. My guess is many of the safety feature are a net positive. It would be interesting to see the tradeoffs though.

[mmooss]

I thought the stats have shown driving becoming safer and safer?

[rconti]

It has! More impressively, it's done so while Vehicle Miles Travelled has gone up as well.

But it feels like we're reaching a point where we're trying to catch a falling knife, where every safety improvement is _obviously_ worth it, even as the easy gains have gone away. We've also (almost) completely ignored the safety of everyone outside of the vehicle in our arms race to protect occupants.

[walrus01]

I am very doubtful that one could manufacture a $10k (USD) car, have some tiny amount of profit margin on it, and still meet federal dual airbag, crash test safety standards. The extremely affordable cars sold in India for example would never meet US/Canadian road standards.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Motor_Vehicle_Safety_S...

[FrequentLurker]

There are ICE cars in India for around 10k that scores 5 stars on global ncap, idk how that compares to US road safety standards tho.

[BenFranklin100]

That’s a different conversation. The OP was arguing 2.5X the price solely to support union wages.

[Geezus_42]

You don't think people deserve a livable wage?

[devilbunny]

Define "livable". A suburban detached home is far more expensive than a single-room-occupancy hotel room. And yet people lived in the latter for a large portion of US history, often with roommates. Some still do.

It would be great if everyone could be wealthy enough to buy all their necessities and never worry about money, but that's a pipe dream.

[BenFranklin100]

$36K/yr is a livable wage in China.

[mc32]

It's a vicious circle.

Farming mfg out, puts those people out of a job, those out of a job can get lower pay or go on the dole -that comes out of all those "poorer people's" taxes. And, while we're at it, why not outsource poor people's labor overseas or even import cheap unskilled labor to undermine them?

No, you want to maintain a diversified, robust and self-sustaining economy that perpetuates wealth rather then siphon it overseas.

[JojoFatsani]

They buy used.

[Fruitmaniac]

"We"? Do you think the average American would pay more so workers can earn a living wage? Which America do you live in?

[dalyons]

Give “we” people the choice to buy a cheap car and see what they would rather choose to do.

[mattmaroon]

They’ll buy the cheap cars then complain 20 years later that the politicians shipped the jobs to China, of course. It’s a tragedy of the commons.

All humans are hypocrites. We want manufacturing here, both for jobs and National security/economic resilience. But we also have our own budgets.

[tim333]

>The wealthier half of the world will never let Chinese auto makers in

Australia and the UK have modest barriers to entry - especially in Australia a large part of the market is Chinese.

In the EU they are allowing Chinese imports because otherwise the Chinese would restrict the sale of German cars in China. So they are coming in though still a small percentage of the market in the EU/UK.

[simgt]

I'd rather pay for a transition out of car-centricity instead of subsidising a dying industry that lobbied against every single move forward in the past few decades. Against air quality, against electric transition, for fossil fuel, against cycling infrastructure, against the safety of other road users. Right now they build only SUVs, mostly hybrids, when we actually need electric Twingos.

VW and Stellantis need to go bankrupt and their technical workers need help to transition to being part of industries that will strive in a low-carbon economy: public transports, bicycles, two-wheels EVs, etc. [0] As for the management of these companies, they can all bloody starve, frankly.

[0] https://ilnousfautunplan.fr/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/Indus..., Claude's summary in English: https://claude.ai/share/695d7c05-25e5-4295-aa09-2bdc8717f8ca

[SoftTalker]

I would never pay $20k for a car. No matter who made it.

[sashank_1509]

I have never paid less than $20k for a new car. Is this a US thing? Does Europe have much cheaper cars? It’s around $25k for sedan, and > $30k for SUV’s in US. And the most popular vehicles in US are pickup trucks that are > $50k

[simgt]

Europe has smaller cars, up until recently you'd see way more very small 3-doors hatchbacks than SUVs, including in rural areas. These would cost around 10-15k€ new, bellow 10k€ with a few thousands kms on the counter.

[dagw]

I have never paid less than $20k for a new car.

I have never bought a new car.

[litbear2022]

Does a thriving auto industry mean that its industrial workers can't afford eggs?

[Nursie]

They don't sell the seagull here in Australia, but the entry level Dolphin retails at about US $1000 less than this new EV.

With this not due to start production for two years, it does look like they're well behind the game and unlikely to be able to compete on price.

(edit - I realise this is at least in part because the Chinese government subsidise the industry, and here in Aus we have no tariffs on them because we have no car industry to protect)

[senectus1]

In October I bought an MG4 (350km range) for 31k (AUD).

Its very much cheap and cheerful. but its a great little car, with all the issues it has I still would not hesitate to recommend it. Its perfect for our commute car, and I charge it by solar panels so drive it for free.

The VW model is likely to be about the $40-45k (AUD) which is nowhere near the "affordable" range they think they're trying to hit.

[znkynz]

I have the GWM Ora.Very similar feelings about it. Not perfect, but very good. Mainstream/legacy automakers have already lost; They will seek to erect market barriers.

[y42]

You can probably always find a cheaper car, but that's not the point here. VW's goal isn’t to offer the cheapest EV in the world. The company is clearly targeting the European market.

It’s also important to note that car prices aren’t directly comparable across different global markets. China heavily subsidizes its local car manufacturers. An EV for €8,900? That doesn’t even cover the material costs.

Right now, VW offers the ID.3 for around €30,000, so the price gap is significant. When the BYD Seagull launches in Europe, it likely won’t be priced at €10,000 either—various factors will probably drive up its cost.

And while I don’t want to rely on the outdated "Made-in-Germany" argument, we should wait and see how the ID. EVER1 actually performs before comparing cars based on price alone. I know that the BYD Seagull is of a decent quality. So let's see, what VW will offer.

[trhway]

>btw does GM sell a C-segment hatchback on any market, anymore?) and their EVs are simply uncompetitive.

for whatever reason GM ended Bolt, and now the cheapest/smallest seems to be Equinox EV SUV with starting MSRP 33600 (before tax credits if any, etc). While it is on smallish side SUV-wise for US market, for the European and similar markets i guess it would be pretty large.

With Tesla being the leader in EV the second officially is Ford with 6% followed closely by GM, yet the Hyundai + Kia together have 10%, and anecdotally i see around SF Bay Area a lot of Kia/Hyundai EVs (sedans or SUV-ish sedans).

[torginus]

Well, the Golf is an extremely popular car, yet isn't the cheapest in the C segment by far. They achieve this not by cost cutting, but by making the benchmark car to beat.

[simgt]

> by making the benchmark car to beat

Fun choice of words for the company that famously got caught cheating at the benchmarks

[blackeyeblitzar]

I don’t really trust BYD quality. I’ve seen way too many videos leak out of Chinese social media about build issues they refuse to acknowledge, thin or weak structural materials, fires, etc. Easier to trust Tesla or VW. I wonder if they would make different quality vehicles targeted at different markets.

[Nursie]

They are massively popular here in Australia, and I've not heard of any issues with quality or safety. They are held to the same standards as everyone else.

[torginus]

I don't either, but simply on account of there not being a 10, 20 year old Dolphin to see how they'll do in terms of reliability years down the line.

History shows that pretty much no one who set out to make a reliable design the got it right the first time, things tend to fail in unexpected ways.

From the teardowns, BYDs seem to be pretty much unrepairable - batteries are glued together, and the motor/inverter/charger/heatpump/etc seems to be put together into one sealed unit - something they're pretty proud of, but let's hope nothing fails in there.

From what I hear from the Chinese, they aren't big on the second hand market, so that's another worrying aspect.

[daghamm]

"Easier to trust Tesla or VW."

Teslas are now old enough to be subject to mandatory yearly inspection in EU. They are dead last in the German and Swedish rankings based on the number of issues found during the yearly inspection.

German TÜV EV+ICE ranking:

  1. Honda Jazz

  2. VW Golf

  ...

  110. Ford Mondeo

  111. Tesla model 3

Swedish Besktining EV car maker ranking

  1. Polestar

  2. Lync

  ...

  X-1. Dacia 

  X. Tesla

Source:

https://www.carscoops.com/2024/11/tesla-model-3-comes-bottom...

https://www.tjanstebilsfakta.se/teslas-besiktningsresultat-a...

[mk89]

The moment you focus on quality, your price can't be that low. Then good luck competing with VW or other cars.

These cars are garbage, people are happy because they are cheap, shiny and have all multimedia and can do 400KM... why not.

[bruce511]

I'm old enough to have been around this bush twice already.

In the 70s your argument was made against emerging Japanese makers. Unknowns like Toyota, Datsun (now Nissan), Honda etc.

Then in the 90s it was Koreans entering the market. Daihatsu, Hyundai, Kia etc.

Now it's the Chinese brands arriving as well. The incumbents will talk about "quality" all day long, but in truth European quality was always a bit of a myth (British Leyland anyone?) And the heyday of BMW or Mercedes quality is long gone.

The gold standard for quality today? Probably Toyota or Honda.

So yeah, laugh off the Chinese options as low-quality.

[ryuno_k]

The problem is China is taking the different strategy.

All of the products they are making actually have two lines, one for the oversea, one for the nation. The oversea line would be high quality at first. But once they eat up all the market share, the story would start to change. The oversea buyer would happily to see they are been treated the same as Chinese.

Just think about the product from TEMU.

[bruce511]

>> But once they eat up all the market share, the story would start to change.

You may be right. But at the moment this is just speculation. Just like happened from Japan and Korea, the quality ramped up quickly. And yes, companies age, and as they do so quality drops off. And another rises in it's place. That's literally the issue you're seeing now with US and European goods.

>> Just think about the product from TEMU.

Interestingly the quality there is climbing too.

[tim333]

The Chinese can make cheap rubbish and also very good quality depending on the incentives. Most of the Apple stuff is still made there.

I used to have a Chinese made imitation Yamaha and the quality was awful as you'd expect from a counterfeit knock off manufacturer but I imagine the BYD stuff is pretty good.

[tim333]

I remember our British Leyland Rovers. Yeah not great.

[martinpw]

> These cars are garbage

A few years ago this was true, but quality has improved massively since then. Was in China recently, got to ride in a bunch of Chinese EVs including several BYDs. Really impressed with them, and came away wishing I could buy one myself, but that seems unlikely to be an option for now in the US unfortunately.

[momo_hn2025]

You probably need to brush up on a little concept called "Economies of Scale."

[tim333]

I think you'll find in the EU the price of the VW and the BYD will be much more similar.

[gcanyon]

Off-topic, but I spent time in Uruguay last year and loved it there!

[taeric]

I mean, I'd expect it to be more than a gas car? No? This price would be appealing to me if on the market right now.

[SoftTalker]

Why? We’re told they are mechanically much simpler. Electric motor. No transmission. Why do they cost more?

[taeric]

Mechanics, sure. Chemically, not so much. The batteries are rather non trivial.

[dalyons]

How so? Batteries are simple and amenable to massive economies of scale that ice engines are not

[taeric]

I'm curious why you think batteries that can run a car are simple? Literally new technology, no?

[dalyons]

They’re complicated and hard to develop initially, but are fundamentally physically and mechanically simple and thus simple to manufacture cheap at scale. Whereas ICE engines are developed tech but are intrinsically complicated to build. If that makes sense

[mk89]

Sorry but reading Volkswagen and "crappy products" in the same sentence means either you never drove one or you've got very high standards, but then you're happy with BYD...

These new Chinese cars are literally flooding the market with the usual way we are used nowadays to think: buy cheap, change again in 2 years. (Which we didn't do before this cheap manufacturing existed.)

In this context it makes totally sense.

Cars, though, at least how we're used to think, are made to last. A car is not just a bunch of features, it's also a lot about the quality of the components, and there are videos showing how poor BYD quality is. If you're happy with that, that's OK.

[spaqin]

Having driven an Audi A3 for a while... and that's the "premium" VW, it was not really great at all.

And having been to China and sitting in plenty of BYDs... they're on par. Decent.

The cars can be obviously cheaper, and yet aren't. Chinese market may be subsidized, but international? Not really. Coming back to VW, ID3 in China was half the price compared to the one in Europe, so there were even people trying to import them back and sell for less than official distribution - that effort was shut down thanks to VW's lobby.

[magicalhippo]

> Sorry but reading Volkswagen and "crappy products" in the same sentence means either you never drove one or you've got very high standards

The rest of the car is fine I suppose but the infotainment unit in my brother's ID.4 is most certainly crappy.

The touch is horrible, the unit is slow AF both in latency and update rate, and the menus kinda suck.

Sure it's a small part of the car, but it's pretty integral to the operation of the car given they removed most knobs and buttons.

[ahartmetz]

I've worked on car infotainment, I know VW's is crap, but serious question: why give a shit? It's not what cars are for and all of them are good enough to play some music or listen to the radio while driving. You can use a phone holder for navigation.

[magicalhippo]

Because, thanks to removing buttons and such, it's an integral part of operating the car.

In my Renault Megane e-Tech, if my windshield suddenly fogs up I can hit a physical button[1] to max the heater and blower. In the ID.4 it goes via the touch screen.

So, you press the "button" on the screen, nothing happens, so you press it again, except it turns out the system registered the first time it was just slow and so now you've turned it back off again. Or, you press it and nothing happens and you press another 5x times and still nothing because your finger is too dry...

I see the 2024 variant[2] kept the all-touch approach, but I haven't tried it so perhaps it works better in practice.

[1]: https://www.megautos.com/nuevo-renault-megane-e-tech-electri... (row below the center console screen)

[1]: https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/volkswagen-id-buzz-cargo-te...

[ahartmetz]

I see. "Car things user interface sucks" is quite bad indeed.

[mk89]

I think this is what makes this new model different - they apparently work with another software company which (probably) should be better.