[milesrout]

"The hoi polloi" is a fixed phrase in English. Its etymology is irrelevant. We don't pronounce it "properly" either. Thay is because it isn't Greek! It is English. It has Greek origins but it was long ago borrowed into English and now follows English rules. ~Everyone knows "hoi" means "the" in Greek. But the phrase in English is "the hoi polloi". It is never found except as "the hoi polloi". If you said "Hoi polloi are upset" in real life people would look at you funny. There are loads of other examples of this happening. For example there are various verbs and adjectives from Latin that have been borrowed as nouns into English. If you go "uhm actually that is a verb in Latin actually" you are annoying and wrong. Language evolves.

[robocat]

But you wrote it in English. Perhaps if you were taught in a grammar school, you would write it by hand something akin to: οἱ πολλοί

For some UK examples of usage listen to: https://youglish.com/pronounce/Hoi_polloi/english/uk

Showing off your education is oftentimes used to signal high status. That often fails. You can of course argue with the OED:

  Hoi is the Greek word for the, and the phrase hoi polloi means ‘the many.’ This has led some traditionalists to insist that hoi polloi should not be used in English with the, since that would be to state the word the twice. But, once established in English, expressions such as hoi polloi are typically treated as fixed units and are subject to the rules and conventions of English.

Disclaimer: I'm one of the οἱ ὀλίγοι from the colonies, so the only thing I was learnt is baaaaaaa.

[milesrout]

Fellow Kiwi? The tone of your comment makes it sound to me like you disagree with me but I agree with everything you are saying.

I am usually a traditionalist but on this one I think the tradition to follow is the English one. I prefer the traditional English pronunciation of Latin (so "caveat" is "kay-vee-it"). Hell, I would prefer if we still nativised foreign loanwords and names: Saint Peter wasn't called "Peter" obviously, but I don't speak Greek or Aramaic or whatever. Peking isn't what the Chinese call it but neither is "Bayzhing" which is how English people pronounce Beijing, and so on. Plus now "Peking duck" doesn't make any sense...

(grumble)

[robocat]

From Christchurch. I was attempting to take the mick out of myself actually. I'm so humble.

Opinions on language are often subconscious status signaling. And too often people incorrect other people with the pretentions of displaying intelligence but actually displaying ignorance (oooooo judgy!). I fight the tendency within myself.

We end up with a half-assed attempt to be cultured for subconscious reasons, and it is often unappreciated by others.

I have become a weird rotator.

> Peking

My examples are Cristóbal Colón (Christophorus Columbus) and Pirata Drake (I didn't understand who it was when I first heard it). I've wondered how English names get mashed in Asian languages (especially Mandarin).

Did you notice the Wikipedia entry:

  there is also widespread spoken use of the term in the opposite sense to refer denigratingly to elites that is common among middle-class and lower income people in Australia, ...

That calls to my love of the antipodes and I fear I'm going to rewire my brain to discorrect myself.

[thaumasiotes]

> I've wondered how English names get mashed in Asian languages (especially Mandarin).

詹妮弗·安妮斯顿 zhān nī fú ān nī sī dùn [Jennifer Aniston]

[for approximations that make sense in English: zhan like "John"; ni like "knee"; fu like "foo", an like "on", si like "sick" without the K at the end of the syllable, dun like... it begins with "dw", the vowel is as in "book", then it ends with N. If pinyin were more regular, dun would be spelled "dwen".]

圣文森特和格林纳丁斯 shèng wén sēn tè hé gé lín nà dīng sī [Saint Vincent and the Grenadines]

[圣 shèng and 和 hé are translations, not sound equivalents, of the English words "saint" and "and".

The vowel "e" in the first six syllables is best approximated by the vowel of the English word "book". As before, the vowel written "i" in "lin" and "ding" is the English FLEECE vowel, and the vowel of "si" is different, more like KIT.

The consonants should be intuitive to you, except that the W in "wen" might sound more like a W or like a V depending on the whims of the speaker.]

[thaumasiotes]

> I prefer the traditional English pronunciation of Latin (so "caveat" is "kay-vee-it").

...That's not an example of the traditional English pronunciation of Latin. The traditional English pronunciation of Latin caveat would have /kæ/ (TRAP vowel) in the first syllable, not /keɪ/ (FACE vowel).

> when a vowel is followed by a single consonant (or by a cluster of p, t, c/k plus l, r) and then another vowel [...]

> [such a vowel bearing stress in any syllable other than the penultima] is closed and the vowel is short [unless the vowel is U].

( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_English_pronunciat... )

/'ka.ʋɛ.at/ -> /'kæv.i.ət/

[fsckboy]

hoi polloi was borrowed into english as a way not only of saying "the masses", but of signalling one's own status above the masses. Another way of signalling such status is to show off one's deeper familiearity with obscure details of foreign languages.

or to put it another way, only hoi polloi say "the hoi polloi"; on this same topic linguists are generally incoherent, so intent are they to repeat yet again "descriptivism doncha know"

[thaumasiotes]

> "The hoi polloi" is a fixed phrase in English.

I'm aware of that, but it is not typical of borrowed terms. You can't explain the oddity of the phrase by appealing to the idea that that's how foreign terms are borrowed into English, because it isn't.

> ~Everyone knows "hoi" means "the" in Greek.

Try running a poll.