[for_i_in_range]

Hate that if you use Word for Mac, you now have Copilot next to your cursor with no way of turning it off.

I just want to use Word. I like its print layout features better than Pages. I don't want to switch. Just let me write and leave me alone. Now they're jamming AI down my throat without any opt-out mechanism.

[thelittleone]

Not only did the megacorp CEO's drop the ball on AI... we've got them gloating over widespread firing of engineers due to AI and then quotes like "I'm good for my $80B" like its his own personal money bag. And now they're force feeding crappy alpha AI products. The egos are well out of hand. And they give this group the name "The Magnificent Seven". WTF have we become. We trust these companies to be stewards of AGI/ASI?

[Fr0styMatt88]

So much this, when you see Zuck or even Jensen Huang saying "software engineers won't be needed anymore" and being excited about it you get pissed off as a software engineer lol.

I feel like Microsoft's whole thing with Windows 11 has been "just force the users to do what we want them to do, we know better than they do" so it doesn't surprise me that 365 went the same way.

I'm saying this and I'm a person that's usually extremely enthusiastic about new tech, but I'm just burnt out on these companies trying to shove AI down our throats.

Had it been opt-in and gradual, I would be far more optimistic and enthusiastic. I guess my question is "why such a rush?". Even Apple rushed into it with something half-baked and unfinished.

[dreamcompiler]

> So much this, when you see Zuck or even Jensen Huang saying "software engineers won't be needed anymore" and being excited about it you get pissed off as a software engineer lol.

The real story nobody is saying out loud is that CEOs are much more replaceable by AI than are software engineers.

[BuyMyBitcoins]

Exactly zero management or executive positions at my workplace have had the “can an AI do this?” exercise intended to explore ways of reducing headcount.

[JimDabell]

CEO is the one job role that AI can’t take because AI lacks accountability. Who is the person using the AI that will get blamed by the board if they screw up? That’s the CEO, even if you decide to give them a different title.

[conartist6]

CEOs also lack real accountability though. Every time something goes really wrong they claim that they have no responsibility because people below them caused the problems.

How the F do you square that circle? If you're at the top you either are responsible or you aren't.

[richardw]

That applies to many roles. Lawyer AI can’t actually lawyer because someone needs to be accountable. War fighting AI needs to know where to kill. Doctor AI needs handholding. If we can find a legal construct for an AI surgeon operating on your child I think we can find one for an agent running a marketing company working on shareholders behalf.

[re-thc]

> Who is the person using the AI that will get blamed by the board if they screw up?

The AI will get blamed and they can switch from OpenAI to Claude to something else.

[n4r9]

Yeah, the accountability argument doesn't make sense to me from a practical viewpoint. The benefit of accountability is that it provides a path to avoiding repeated errors. There are other ways to achieve this using software tools.

[wisty]

You can get a pretty good accountant for $100k I think. They could vet the AI decisions and take responsibility.

[taneq]

I've been saying for a long time that the real definition of 'personhood' is the ability to take liability. If something can be sued in court (not counting civil forfeiture sophistry) then it counts as a person.

[autoexec]

How about "If it gets sentenced to prison time" instead because corporations routinely get sued in court only to be charged a small percentage of the profit they make through criminal activity and that isn't "liability" it's just paying the justice system a cut of the action as a cost of doing business.

[ulfw]

What accountability does Elon Reeve Musk, richest grifter on the planet and CEO of half a dozen companies ever face? An AI can be turned off and replaced at any time.

[hakfoo]

CEOs are replaceable by a bag of D20s. Let's not waste the watts on a LLM.

[eddythompson80]

> The real story nobody is saying out loud is that CEOs are much more replaceable by AI than are software engineers.

Sorry, but that’s not true at all. It doesn’t really make a lot of sense. Who is replacing the CEO of a company with AI? The board? The board doesn’t want/can’t run the company. They will hire someone to “run the CEO AI”? Won’t that just be a CEO using AI? Maybe that makes it so the CEO is paid less Because now they just run OpenCEOv4? I don’t see it happening though. Also a very large portion of the day to day of CEO level execs at those big companies interpersonal and/or performative. You won’t be replacing that with AI anytime soon. You still need a face of it at the end of the day.

[conartist6]

Lets say that CEOs are no more or less replaceable with AI than all the other jobs.

Throwing away all the humans to replace them with AIs is a move only an AI CEO would make, because and AI couldn't give less of a shit if something it does blows up in its face. Well, apparently real CEOs couldn't care less either. Imagining you're going to run a successful software organization (once you've hollowed out the people who both understand the work and actually give a shit about it) is insane. These people know that it will blow up, but they hope that it is only after they can rake in their bonus pay for the mounds of short term profits that result form layoffs, after which they'll float away under their golden parachutes leaving their former companies to collapse under the weight of institutionalized incompetence.

[disqard]

Yes, I agree with the picture you're painting here, but it befuddles me where all these grifters think they'll go?

They'll have to live in bunkers for the rest of their lives.

Imagine that you're one of them, and you want to go watch a game (or a T. Swift concert) -- so you hop on your private jet and go to the stadium/arena. If you happen to be caught on-camera and your face is up there, on the Jumbotron, every single person there is gonna boo you. That's what your life will be like. What's the point?

[justinclift]

> Well, apparently real CEOs couldn't care less either.

Some healthcare ones did for a few weeks, after one of them got whacked by someone truly over their bullshit.

[re-thc]

> You still need a face of it at the end of the day.

Wasn't that the whole point of AI generated images / video?

[eddythompson80]

No? That makes no sense.

[butlike]

Flip the script. The CEO AI runs the company. No one runs the CEO AI.

> You still need a face of it at the end of the day.

Feel like that one's solved with 30 seconds on DALL-E

[eddythompson80]

again, that also makes no sense. If AI reaches that level of competence, then why would it only replace the CEO position or be better at being a CEO than say a people's manager? an engineer, HR, legal, sales, marketing etc? In fact, why not just create an "All AI company". you just register it, and run OpenCompanyAI, feed it some parameters "You are a company selling

[whywhywhywhy]

This just isn't true unfortunately, but the angle of attack that is true is AI replacing the need for the rest of the company for you to be able to make money as an individual.

[edm0nd]

>I feel like Microsoft's whole thing with Windows 11 has been "just force the users to do what we want them to do, we know better than they do"

My biggest gripe about Win11 is they stole from us the ability to move the task bar. It can ONLY be pinned to the bottom of the screen now. For the longest time, I was a top of the screen taskbar user. From what I've read, they have no plans to implement or change this "feature".

[jachee]

That and the fact that it will brick my $600 HP Reverb G2 headset are two reasons that I will never ever “upgrade” to Win11.

[cudgy]

Microsoft not the only one.Mac OS upgrades effectively brick their own hardware. I’ve got a beautiful 27 inch iMac with a retina screen 5k … unusable now on last 2 OS updates.

[jachee]

Unusable? I still use my 27” 2011 iMac. Other than performing like a 14-year-old computer, it still does everything it ever could.

[otikik]

Easier to implement ads on it if you can't move it.

[IIsi50MHz]

Perhaps, after decades of application bugs caused by developers not properly accounting for taskbar position and size, random ordinary users being distressed by accident'ly moving or resizing the taskbar and unable to get it back (leaving aside savvy users), Microsoft have given up? I seem to recall various articles on this over the years, including on Raymond Chen's "The Old New Thing".

Mild example: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20040513-00/?p=39...

[ambigious7777]

It's possible to do it using [ExplorerPatcher] I think, but it's not officially supported.

[ExplorerPatcher]: https://github.com/valinet/ExplorerPatcher

[qiine]

really we are that low now ?

[ogogmad]

This seems extremely niche. Maybe even petty? Why do you care where the taskbar is? Remember that every change breaks someone's workflow: https://xkcd.com/1172/

[sensanaty]

It's been a feature of Windows for a decade+, why on earth would they remove it? I've had mine aligned to the top of the screen for as long as I can remember, and there's even 3rd party tools that restore this basic ass behavior in Win11 (not that I'll ever use that bloatware willingly again). M$ has no excuse, other than them being a completely incompetent entity of course.

[burnte]

> It's been a feature of Windows for a decade+

It was in Windows 95! AT LAUNCH!

[vrighter]

It was there 3 (three) decades ago.

[ogogmad]

But can you explain why this feature is/was so important? The fact that there are 3rd party tools that can restore it makes it even more marginal. There are gazillions of UI changes in every app we use, it seems strange that this very marginal one should get someone up in arms.

> M$ has no excuse, other than them being a completely incompetent entity of course.

No, it's because "M$" doesn't think it's an important feature. There's no incompetence. Do you actually believe what you said?

Is this some form of OCD or hypersensitivity? Because I struggle to understand the type of mind that cares at all about this. And how do such people go through life, especially working in software, where things change constantly?

[vasac]

Apparently, it isn't that rare, as I too used to place the taskbar at the top of the screen (I switched to Mac 10 years ago). I simply wanted the taskbar to be near the menu bar so I wouldn't have to move the mouse more than necessary - that was the first thing I customized when installing Windows.

[Kinrany]

Because they're used to it being in a different place?

[Yeul]

Man I'm old. I've been using Windows since 98. I can't stand it when MS designers change shit.

Luckily I'm not the only one and there are many tools to pretty much keep Windows stuck in time.

[edm0nd]

A comment like this tells me you are a child and ignorant.

[maxmcorp]

Well, it is not software developers that won't be needed anymore. It is large corporations. If a small team of developers can make huge projects. There is no reason for them to work for a large business.

[BoorishBears]

> you get pissed off as a software engineer lol

I think this part depends on the person. I've personally been programming since I was a kid making games for my TI-83+, and in all that time and fatigue have been the limiting factors in how much of what I wanted to build that I actually could build.

So something able to write code rigorously enough to replace SWEs would be an absolute dream! I love programming with all my heart, and it's the thing I've spent most of my life doing... but I feel in love with it because it could make things.

A way to make even more things at a greater scale I'm individually capable off is such a joyous idea that if anything, I get annoyed at the idea they'd tease that without knowing it's possible (of course, they're trying to raise so...)

The aspect of wanting to replace SWEs is completely ok with me and I think there should be a rush to see it through. Imagine if every researcher could have an army of top tier SWEs at their beck and call for example. Or even imagine learning to program alongside a personal world-class expert from day 1, after all the fact AI could do it wouldn't mean we couldn't still do it ourselves if we wanted to.

-

Unlike the "AGI in 3 years crowd" I don't actually know that it's possible, but where I agree with them is that the route there is probably not going to be a slow burn. Most companies need to demonstrate some external value along the way or they won't be able to continue, hence the chasing down of usecases that they can ship today.

Unfortunately not all of us can raise $1B on a txt file and a promise not to release our product :)

[arvinsim]

I would guess that the pushback is more about the possible economic imbalance that will happen and less about being replaced on the actual effort of coding.

[BoorishBears]

Maybe because I'm not originally from this country my view is different, but I think the fact the majority of the world's increase in population is about to happen in extremely poor places that will be subject to the worst of climate change means that the AI will have to be immensely powerful to actually increase worse imbalances than we're already headed for.

So powerful that it'd also raise the floor on quality of life for the 8 billion people on earth almost with ease, even if its owners stayed deeply profit/power motivated.

After all, it's not like the tech bros will get to make money by hoarding the AI and it's fruits after all. They need to apply to downstream tasks to actually cash in on its value. They could hoard the AI itself, but if OpenAI was suddenly able to break into every industry with a tireless AI army of top engineers and researchers they'd still be be producing real advancements for the world.

(and to be clear that's closer the worst timelines where AI advances so greatly. I think the more realistically we'd seem competition lead to something much closer to widespread advancements rather than some singular superpower emerging)

[intended]

I am almost certainly wrong, and we will find some solution, or sue the hell out of the genAI firms, but this is the economic issue I see. It competes with productivity as a core economic driver of human wellbeing:

Concentration of wealth.

GenAI consumes content, even that created in low resource languages and regions, and spits it back out, separating the creator from the traffic due to their labor.

This isn’t entirely unknown - we’ve all been inspired by someone else stuff and copied our own.

Now, genAi firms have inserted themselves into this loop. And they’re cutting out the creator.

The scaled, automated pseudo workers that these firms promise, are owned by the firms. The productivity they create accrues to a small group of foreign multi nationals.

Economically - this shouldn’t be an issue. More productivity, means more capability of people doing newer work.

I do expect this to happen. However firms are also very good at making sure they capture the greater share of the market.

[dividedbyzero]

That researcher probably wouldn't have an army of SWEs at his or her disposal but be out of a job like the SWEs. If they get AI to a point where it can be a safe and competent senior SWE, it'll be able to fill a huge breadth of other roles as well. Human creativity isn't looking like quite the moat it was supposed to be.

Our societies are not in any way equipped to deal with putting what may well be a sizable majority of working-age people out of work, possibly for good, nor are we in any way ready for the kind of power certain tech billionaires would have if their workforce were to scale with just the amount of hardware they own.

At this point I kind of hope the current breed of AIs will plateau quickly and stay there for a while so that maybe society can catch up instead of getting surprise bulldozed by a gaggle of tech giants.

[cudgy]

Question I have is if no one has any job because it’s been replaced by AI, what happens to the economy?

[blibble]

essentially it would be the end of employment and return to feudalism

likely followed by either a French Revolution (if lucky) or a Russian Revolution (if not)

[BoorishBears]

> Our societies are not in any way equipped to deal with putting what may well be a sizable majority of working-age people out of work

Our societies were built before there was a technology that could replace its smartest people with machines that never tire?

I don't get why people keep trying to imagine current society + super-intelligent AI: by definition it won't be our current society if we can actually get there would it?

I mean if we have AI that can even replace the researchers (I wouldn't dream so boldly tbh), imagine how much faster the pace of scientific discovery becomes. Imagine how much more efficient we can make power generation and transmission, discover new treatments for disease, democratize learning at costs never before possible...

I don't love to spend too much time daydreaming what we could do down that because SWEs already feels like a bit of a pipedream, so all novel research being automated away is just completely in fantasy land... but realistically we're already on a pretty terrible trajectory otherwise.

Our next billion people are about to be born into some of the worst off parts of the planet. AI becoming good enough to replace researchers would be an infinitely more positive trajectory than some of the others we could end up on on otherwise.

[dividedbyzero]

Social media could have been utopian, too, yet those apps are algorithmic manipulation hellscapes that threaten to bring down even the most robust democracies. The same people who make it so are poised to be the ones in control of these AIs. I don't think they want the kind of utopia you imagine.

[conartist6]

I don't think it's that simple. For one thing, AI isn't a democratizing force. If it's as good as you think it will be, it will be less like having a good education and more like having an indentured servant. Some people will have whole fleets of such servants doing their bidding, while others will have none.

For another, research isn't an end unto itself. As you note, for some people an already-unfathomable level of societal knowledge has resulted in nothing but continued poverty. Benefit from scientific knowledge requires a stable economy full of consumers who can and will purchase high-tech items. Where will that wealth come from once the value of human intellectual labor has been so undercut by cheap AI intellectual labor? Without the capitol to make AIs work for us, most if not many people will be left to live their life as servants to AIs so that those AIs are able to have autonomy in the real world.

[marcosdumay]

> why such a rush?

OpenAI alone spent $20G plus some unknown value to make the first version of it we have now. They and all the others need to justify the investment.

[aninteger]

Pretty impressive, only $20 grand?

[DaleMgrh]

$20GIGA, not grand.

[rat9988]

I wonder why he uses custom units. Who the hell speaks in G$.

[Nevermark]

$20 grand^3. Forgot the ^3.

[Clubber]

GAZILLION!

[codeduck]

> why such a rush

First mover / Fear of missing out.

Frankly, inclusion of "AI" in a tool is a great way to ensure I don't use it.

[conductr]

My thought has been they are forcing it knowing nobody, as in 98% of people, would give a crap about most of the AI features. People have been using these tools for decades now to solve their problems and there's a lot of muscle memory to overcome even if the 'new way' were in fact better. I myself have found I only adopt new software, and techniques (including things like using/learning keyboard shortcuts, etc), that's a minimum of 2X better/faster than my de facto personal preference or legacy approach of tackling the problem. And, even if >10X, if it's something I do infrequent I still won't be interested in changing my ways. I have a lot of muscle memory that goes into how I build something like a new spreadsheet, even complicated ones. I'm not interested in putting AI into that process.

I have a grandfather that actually took an early retirement package, age 55, specifically because company gave him an ultimatum regarding switching from typewriter to a PC in the 80s. I feel like AI is pushing me towards making that same choice, I don't really care for using it in my work specifically (have no ultimatum at present).

I use it sparsely and it's more of a toy/novelty to me. Although, I do see how it helps other fields more/less and could replace humans in some professions - I'm not a SWE.

[raxxor]

Did Microsoft fire engineers? I heard they had difficulties recruiting ones in the first place.

We still have no AIs developing anything, they aren't even sensibly integrated in workflows where only written texts need to be parsed and processed.

[rpdillon]

Fascinating strategy. It looks like they're forcing everybody into it, so it's opt-out, except there is no opt-out in the initial version of the app. They seem to be in the process of adding it now.

> In your app (for example, Word), select the app menu, and then go to Preferences > Authoring and Proofing Tools > Copilot > Clear the Enable Copilot checkbox > Close and restart the app.

> If you do not see the related button, it means this button has not been pushed to your Office version yet. Please be patient and wait for the development team to release an update.

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/msoffice/forum/all/how-d...

[rogual]

Something about the way Microsoft writes just rubs me the wrong way.

Not: "Please wait for ... an update" But: "Please be patient and wait for ... an update"

It's not just their staff here, it's all over the docs and UI too. They can't write two sentences without saying something condescending and rude.

Like in Word, if you look for how to turn off grammar checking, they'll tell you, but they just have to add "Remember to run spell check. Spelling and grammar errors can seriously undermine what you're trying to say, especially when your boss, your teacher, or that person in HR sees them." [1]

They can't help themselves.

[1] https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/office/turn-spell-check-...

[dunham]

> Hate that if you use Word for Mac, you now have Copilot next to your cursor with no way of turning it off.

They should put it in the bottom corner, next to an animated paperclip instead.

[robotnikman]

>next to an animated paperclip instead.

Now that would be kinda funny, Clippy powered by modern AI

[shrikant]

Well, Copilot is an anagram of "Clip too", which is sort of like Clippy 2.0, or Clippy Too. Microsoft's really missing a trick here!

[mrbungie]

I'm 85% confident that a paperclip maximizer scenario will include Clippy in a way or another.

[NBJack]

Ah yes, the real paperclip doomsday scenario. As was foretold.

[passwordoops]

I heard a description of Copilot as "What Microsoft thought Clippy should be". Thanks, but no thanks.

[utdoctor]

“It looks like you’re trying to build AGI! Need help taking over the world responsibly?”

[heresie-dabord]

"It looks like you think whatever I am doing with all this venture capital is AGI! Should I bother to correct you?"

[lubujackson]

"Turn off Clippy" "I'm sorry Dave, I can't let you do that."

[johnnyanmac]

At least it would generate all kinds of memes and conspiracy. Much more entertaining and productive then Copilot.

[ramoz]

It's honestly disappointing and somewhat strange that they didn't go this route. IP barriers?

[rsynnott]

Because _everyone hated it_. Now, it seems that everyone also hates copilot, but there is no point pre-dooming it by bringing the dread paperclip back from hell.

[BlueTemplar]

Wait, was this prophecy from a decade ago ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4taIpALfAo

[jowea]

I don't think Microsoft is at the level of making a meme out of the marketing flagship product yet. Maybe a joke on their Twitter.

[Cumpiler69]

I wish Microsoft would have the balls to do this. Meme it all the way. At least we'd get some good laughs out of it.

[quitit]

I'll start on a slight tangent, but it may well be the solution to your problem.

Earlier this month I received a price increase email from Microsoft for Office 365 - to the tune of a 46% increase.

Not too keen on this I went to their website to check to see if there was a cheaper plan, and it turns out there is. You can "downgrade" to a Copilot-free version of Office 365, and this also does away with that absurd 46% increase.

So you get to remove Copilot -and- dodge another year of price increases.

Mini edit: Microsoft have started rolling out a "Turn off Copilot" options in the settings, I have it now in Word, but not in Powerpoint or Excel.

[infecto]

The MacOS copilot implementation is horrid. Takes up a significant amount of screen space just to offer a summary of the email. Cannot turn off. For whatever reason cannot be a simple button with pop up on click. It’s horrid.

[ethbr1]

> Takes up a significant amount of screen space just to offer a summary of the email. Cannot turn off. For whatever reason cannot be a simple button with pop up on click.

Because someone had 'Achieve Copilot feature adoption and utilization > 80%' on their VP level OKRs?

[infecto]

Would not put it pass them but truly the macOS office suite is in such disarray that I suspect it’s more mundane that they don’t have any real PMs. Surprising because you would think it would be worth at least some effort.

To this day Excel still does not have ribbon shortcuts so for any excel pros, it’s garbage. I have to run excel in a windows emulated environment.

[jay_kyburz]

I can't think of an email I have ever received that needed to be summarized?

Who is writing these super long emails?

[freehorse]

> Who is writing these super long emails?

Other LLMs.

[cudgy]

Maybe in the future send an email with just a few simple words and phrases that then gets expanded by LLMs on the receiver end. A weird future awaits.

[freehorse]

I hope it does not involve typing on a keyboard. Typing on a keyboard is so millennial, and holds back innovation, such as everybody solely using touchscreens in closed walled gardens. I hope the future is an llm that has access to all the context of our lives and then presents 4-5 such different keywords, and you just tap on the ones you want to use for the email. Once the llm is sufficiently trained, the last step can even be skipped and lead to the most seamless and obstruction-free email user experience possible.

[gloosx]

Typing is a powerful mental exercise, with each keystroke contributing to improved memory, language development, cognitive adaptability, and concentration – all of which essentially breeds innovation.

The future you described is a wild kind of dystopia.

[k8sToGo]

Have you never seen how AI makes texts super long? That needs to be summarized again by the receiver!

Like a reverse compression.

[recursivecaveat]

The apple one to summarize texts is even odder. It is a medium almost entirely defined by extreme brevity.

[mistrial9]

the point is obviously for the AI thing to read your emails -- they are not asking you

[RHSeeger]

I've written some super long emails; but I also include a TL;DR summary at the top when I do. Sometimes, the "how to get to the summary from the current, commonly known info" (long) part is useful; but not for everyone. And certainly not right out of the gate.

That being said, I'd almost never trust an AI to generate the summary part.

[ubermonkey]

People who need to convey complex ideas?

[Keyframe]

sometimes, super long email threads in corps

[infecto]

I could definitely see value in condensing the threads. Would be nice to see a single message.

[Tostino]

Could definitely use this with some of the PG mailing list threads.

[Doctor_Fegg]

> Just let me write

TextEdit all the way.

I used to edit a market-leading print magazine with TextEdit. I don’t need layout features, the designers do that in InDesign. I don’t need a grammar checker or AI because I can write.

[for_i_in_range]

I am old school. I write books and print them out to edit with red pen. Need all of Word's print features. Not everyone is a "digital writer."

[chasil]

Allow me to introduce you to WordStar, in the "modern" context of Joe's Own Editor.

https://gizmodo.com/sci-fi-writer-releases-free-archive-of-l...

https://joe-editor.sourceforge.io/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe%27s_Own_Editor

Edit: I once used WordStar 4 with a daisywheel printer.

[yencabulator]

> I write books and print them out to edit with red pen. Need all of Word's print features.

The latter really doesn't follow from the former. All? Sounds like you need basic printing..

[drooopy]

TextEdit is my editor of choice for 90% of all RTF word processing that I do, when on a Mac.

[Finnucane]

Do you have a copyeditor and/or proofreader? I'm a production editor. Part of my job is to fix stuff written by people who can write.

[jappgar]

You can still proof it. Op is just saying they don't need spellcheck (perhaps because they do have an editor).

[elicksaur]

Actually the OP specifically said “grammar” checker, which since they can write is likely an intentional distinction. Alternate phrasings reveal the absurd elitism of the statement.

“I don’t need a spellchecker because I can spell.”

“I don’t need a calculator because I can do math.”

[Finnucane]

As a longtime copy editor and proofreader, I would have to agree that spellcheckers and grammar checkers are not worth shit.

[elicksaur]

Your comma after features should be a semicolon, but I’m sure you knew that!

[jpt4]

No, it needn't be.

[alsetmusic]

My company is blocking it.

I don’t know by what mechanism, so it may only be possible with an enterprise license or through device management. But I know it’s possible because I’m on the email thread where someone sought guidance from management and the directive was affirmed to block it on Macs in our fleet.

[Spooky23]

It’s really expensive for enterprise — like about the same cost as M365 E3!

[_rupertius]

For those trying to work out an alternative, I've found OnlyOffice desktop to be pretty good – it's quite similar to the Microsoft products, and fully compatible, but free.

[Molitor5901]

I've been using an old version of Word and Office and have no intention of ever upgrading.

[weakfish]

May I suggest Scrivener? It’s somewhat geared toward novels, but is very useful in other domains as well. Plus, it’s a one time buy.

[rkagerer]

Office 2003 is my preferred pick for productivity, I use it for all new documents - and best of all there's no ribbon.

[ozim]

Why not LibreOffice?

[usr1106]

I use it. Not always great, too bloated and instructions found on the web are often for a different version and just don't seem to work.

But pretty sure it's not worse than Microsoft. I'd rather burn my money than spending it on Microsoft "products".

[einpoklum]

LibreOffice is probably about 10% of the size of MS Office these days...

As for instructions/support: Changes between subsequent versions are minor. There was a versioning scheme change recently, so you may be thinking "Oh, LibreOffice 7.3 vs 24.8, very different" - no, mostly the same thing, it's just that 24.8 came out in 2024, in August. Also, there is ask.libreoffice.org #libreoffice on irc.libera.chat , and there are Telegram and Matrix channels... so just ask.

But it's true that with 0.1%-0.5% or so of the budget MS Office gets, it's difficult to keep all of the materials fully up-to-date.

[ozim]

Question was to the person who claims he is using Office 2003.

I think LibreOffice 2024 is much better than Office 2003.

[ozim]

Don’t forget I was replying to a person who is using Office 2003 and not paying as they probably paid their once 20 years ago for license and also don’t have any new features.

[rkagerer]

Last time I tried it (maybe 20 years ago?) there were fidelity issues (documents didn't display exactly identical to authentic Word), and some differences in minor features.

I should probably give it another whirl, although I'm really happy with 2003.

[rstuart4133]

The fidelity issues are still there if you are loading Microsoft formats into LO. All the Microsoft format specificions are a insanely long, complex messes that even Microsoft doesn't follow, so I suspect that will always be so. But Office now read/writes ODF files, so you can ask it to convert into something LO is the authority on. That also means you can send an office user an ODF file, and expect it to be displayed sensibly.

So the friction is still there, but it's a lot less now.

[ipaddr]

Honestly it has improved quite a bit. The excel like product calc could be better.

[asa977]

Seconded. It’s sane, it’s stable, it’s compatible.

[sombragris]

Seconded. Really a sane, decent UI for an office suite and works very well.

[johnnyanmac]

Surprised they didn't Adobe that yet. Or maybe they already have, but it will only really affect enterprise who has actual money to go after.

Slightly surprised it still works on Windows 11. I'd be surprised if it had 64-bit support. I guess thst speaks to their commitment to backwards compatibility.

[NexRebular]

Office v. X on a Powerbook G4 12-inch. Can't get better than that...

[Angostura]

I remember those fun 'lickable' icons

[kjkjadksj]

If you throw word behind a firewall with something like little snitch, does copilot disappear? There is probably zero reason word, excel, or powerpoint should need to connect to the internet.

[manchmalscott]

IIRC, excel’s ability to run Python is entirely cloud based, even in the desktop apps. There is, of course, probably zero reason why that would need to be the case either :/

[ubermonkey]

this still makes me super mad.

I was very excited about that feature announcement --- until I realized it was just sending the code to MSFT to parse or whatever.

"Excel understands Python now" would be amazing. What they actually did is completely pointless.

[maximilianthe1]

Excel has a sometimes useful feature of gripping data from tables from url.

[btreecat]

Maybe it's time you vote with your wallet rather than begrudgingly accept the AI?

[Cumpiler69]

Go with TempleOS. It doesn't come with any AI.

[ubermonkey]

I'm on Word on a Mac, and I do not see Copilot at all.

What have I done to banish it?

(I'm with you. I actually don't mind Word and Excel, on either platform, because they're good. Excel is pretty great, tbh. But the ongoing goofiness of MSFT is definitely making me look at alternatives more than i used to.)

*EDIT* It appears my refusal to allow AutoUpdate to run at will has saved me? I'm on Word for Mac 16.8.

[the_snooze]

>Just let me write and leave me alone.

Yeah, we have networked supercomputers in every pocket and on every desk. And word processors and spreadsheets have been around for decades---that use case is a solved problem.

I suppose we can be charitable to Microsoft and say they're trying to innovate, but these AI features lack a clear practical need that they're meeting. It feels more like Big Tech flopping around trying to make the next big thing happen, rather than actually going out into the real world and solving problems actual humans have.

[surfingdino]

Microsoft is trying to stay relevant and have an answer to Wall St analysis asking them questions about their AI strategy. They will delete AI tools and helpers as soon as the industry goes after another "big idea".

[wkat4242]

Also, they can now proudly proclaim they have 100M+ subscribers to their AI stuff so it's a huge success :P

I'm glad my web-only 365 (business basic without teams, can't use the family plan because I need a personal domain) just renewed for a year so they can't mess with mine.

[rawgabbit]

This. It is backwards attempt to become "The AI" company. They have sole rights to use OpenAI's technology and the best they can come up with is a price markup to further piss off their customers.

[graemep]

Why would they care if customers whine but remain customers?

[rawgabbit]

That is true. Being a Microsoft customer is to be in an abusive relationship. There is a substantial cost in leaving. At some point you do leave.

[Yeul]

I guess making billions of profit isn't enough you need to do something with AI.

[captn3m0]

I am still on Office 2021 on my Mac, which was the last “non-subscription” offering I could find. No Copilot yet.

[kyleee]

Office 2007 works great in wine

[mrweasel]

I haven't attempted to buy it, but there should be a 2024 version: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/p/office-home-...

[defaultcompany]

I’m dating myself but it reminds me of when e-mail hit the mainstream and Microsoft jammed it into every product with no thought for how it would really be used. Like in Excel … every email address in your spreadsheet would open the email client when you clicked the cell. Gee what if I want to edit the value in this cell instead of email the person? We’ll make that possible if you hold shift (or something). It was terrible and this feels exactly the same. The purpose is not to give the user a helpful AI assistant it’s just to be able to say “we have AI”. That’s it.

[ulfw]

Even worse is I get this stupid Copilot thing while typing, interrupting me every two seconds to "generate my text with copilot" instead of oh you know writing text in Word. And when I try it out I get "We encountered a problem validating your Copilot ! license. Learn more about Copilot licensing"

and it doesn't work.

No explanation. I pay for this Office shit (won't anymore now obviously). AI is ruining everything either directly or indirectly. Congrats.

[nycdatasci]

Apple lets their design team make all the critical product decisions, while Microsoft delegates the same responsibility to marketing.

[whywhywhywhy]

Don't think that's true because increasingly often their marketing is nothing like the actual product. Doesn't feel like any of them are working together internally.

[prmoustache]

> I just want to use Word. I like its print layout features better than Pages. I don't want to switch. Just let me write and leave me alone. Now they're jamming AI down my throat without any opt-out mechanism.

Why don't you install and use one of the last single purchase licensed version? Last time I checked they were still available.

[fx1994]

maybe we are locked with o365 from our IT department...

[JALTU]

Auto opt-in because again, we are what's for sale, not the software. And 'scuze me, gotta go check my gmail now...

[liendolucas]

Honestly thinking it again after re-reading the article. This feels like not being hungry at all but someone comes, opens your mouth against your will and pushes you a high calorie burger, fries and soda through your larynx. You are going to eat it, like it or not (just to put it politely).

[insane_dreamer]

I'm the opposite -- I use both Word and Pages and I much prefer the experience in Pages, especially the page layout. I find Word painful to work with by comparison and I avoid it as much as I can.

[narrator]

Libreoffice is way better than Pages.

[derefr]

Maybe in terms of being a word processor (i.e. supporting all the layout and editing/proofing features that Word has.)

But if, as the GP says, you want a program to “just let you write” (with some "writing-phase" accoutrements like change-tracking, word count, a dynamic Table of Contents, and so forth) — and you want a pleasant experience while writing, that takes advantage of the acceleration of native OS UI elements to keep that writing as smooth and jank-free as possible... then I’d assume Pages would be the clear winner, no?

(That, or just TextEdit. Though I’m not sure if TextEdit is optimized for novel-length texts the way word processors would tend to be.)

[righthand]

You can just write with LibreOffice. Your example of special acceleration for Apple made software is unfounded.

[kstrauser]

I happily used LibreOffice for years, and got a small businesses off Word in favor of it (well, OOo at the time). I’m a fan.

But Pages is much more ergonomic, lightweight, and native on a Mac. There’s not a likely scenario where I’d use LibreOffice over Pages.

[dijit]

The issue with nearly all of these software suites is compatibility.

It is ironic, that libreoffice solves this the best, by being truly cross platform and not requiring special software to be purchased on the receiving end: yet it is the momentum of Microsoft Word that would instead hamper adoption of other word processors.

I am thinking about this, because the reason I would choose not to use Pages, is so that I can share my documents to other companies or even people in my company who may not have a Mac.

[kstrauser]

That's an excellent reason, to be sure. But here we're talking about an app to "just write", like opening a file and start pounding out an article or something. For someone who wants to do that, on a Mac, and who wants basic formatting and word-processory WYSIWYG-edness, I'd recommend Pages.

[philistine]

Well LibreOffice has at its core the ability to deliver me a text editor that starts in 25 seconds versus the 5 of Pages. I’ll stick to the one that saves me time every time I open it.

[prmoustache]

That is because you are starting up word processors instead of a text editor. My text editor starts in less than one second.

[olddustytrail]

Really? It starts in 1 second for me. Must be a Mac thing. I thought they were supposed to be fast?

[philistine]

Well, I didn't count before giving you those numbers. I gave you my feelings, which were way high. It's 1 second for Pages. Libre is too inconsistent to give a number.

It's the story of open-source on Mac. Projects will have an anemic userbase. After all, most Mac users wouldn't be caught dead with Temu MS Word. This means the apps have very poor performance on Mac. No one is filling bug reports.

[prmoustache]

I think it depends if you preload libreoffice at boot time or not. It makes sense if you are using it daily, not so much if you are using it once every other full moon.

[Angostura]

delighted that Office 2019 still seems to work OK

[johnnyanmac]

You will own nothing and like it.

Sadly, switching is the only form of protest we can do against such actions.

[QuantumGood]

Also now there on Windows

[WaltPurvis]

You can turn it off. Go to preferences -> Copilot and uncheck the Enable Copilot checkbox.

[richm44]

As the article explains, that's not been implemented on Mac yet.

[tethys]

That's not correct and also not what the article says. They are only talking about Excel and PowerPoint.

"We're working on adding the Enable Copilot checkbox to Excel, OneNote, and PowerPoint on Windows devices and to Excel and PowerPoint on Mac devices."

I am using Word on my Mac (version 16.93) and do have a checkbox that disables Copilot.

[richm44]

Odd - I also have 16.93 on Mac and I don't get the checkbox (unless I just can't find it I guess).

[WaltPurvis]

Well, I'm on a Mac and it 100% has been implemented for me -- I tried to figure out how to turn it off as soon as I first saw it, went to preferences, found the checkbox. I didn't realize that hasn't been rolled out to everybody.

[johnnyanmac]

Updating story and a rolling update. It'll probably be there within a few days. But it is legitimate that some don't have the option yet.