[edm0nd]

>I feel like Microsoft's whole thing with Windows 11 has been "just force the users to do what we want them to do, we know better than they do"

My biggest gripe about Win11 is they stole from us the ability to move the task bar. It can ONLY be pinned to the bottom of the screen now. For the longest time, I was a top of the screen taskbar user. From what I've read, they have no plans to implement or change this "feature".

[jachee]

That and the fact that it will brick my $600 HP Reverb G2 headset are two reasons that I will never ever “upgrade” to Win11.

[cudgy]

Microsoft not the only one.Mac OS upgrades effectively brick their own hardware. I’ve got a beautiful 27 inch iMac with a retina screen 5k … unusable now on last 2 OS updates.

[jachee]

Unusable? I still use my 27” 2011 iMac. Other than performing like a 14-year-old computer, it still does everything it ever could.

[cudgy]

Except develop apps for the Apple platform. Or use any of the new features of the Apple macOS. Or soon receive any security updates.

[LeFantome]

Well, unless you use LegacyPatcher of course.

[cudgy]

Cool project. Thanks for posting. I may look into it to breathe life into my beautiful old iMac.

Are you using it for your old macs?

Of course, it’s not perfect but what is.

https://github.com/dortania/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher/releases...

“As to be expected, macOS Sequoia support is still in active development. This is a community-driven project, and as such we ask users to keep expectations in check and use older OSes if you encounter issues that affect you.”

[otikik]

Easier to implement ads on it if you can't move it.

[IIsi50MHz]

Perhaps, after decades of application bugs caused by developers not properly accounting for taskbar position and size, random ordinary users being distressed by accident'ly moving or resizing the taskbar and unable to get it back (leaving aside savvy users), Microsoft have given up? I seem to recall various articles on this over the years, including on Raymond Chen's "The Old New Thing".

Mild example: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20040513-00/?p=39...

[ambigious7777]

It's possible to do it using [ExplorerPatcher] I think, but it's not officially supported.

[ExplorerPatcher]: https://github.com/valinet/ExplorerPatcher

[qiine]

really we are that low now ?

[ogogmad]

This seems extremely niche. Maybe even petty? Why do you care where the taskbar is? Remember that every change breaks someone's workflow: https://xkcd.com/1172/

[sensanaty]

It's been a feature of Windows for a decade+, why on earth would they remove it? I've had mine aligned to the top of the screen for as long as I can remember, and there's even 3rd party tools that restore this basic ass behavior in Win11 (not that I'll ever use that bloatware willingly again). M$ has no excuse, other than them being a completely incompetent entity of course.

[burnte]

> It's been a feature of Windows for a decade+

It was in Windows 95! AT LAUNCH!

[vrighter]

It was there 3 (three) decades ago.

[ogogmad]

But can you explain why this feature is/was so important? The fact that there are 3rd party tools that can restore it makes it even more marginal. There are gazillions of UI changes in every app we use, it seems strange that this very marginal one should get someone up in arms.

> M$ has no excuse, other than them being a completely incompetent entity of course.

No, it's because "M$" doesn't think it's an important feature. There's no incompetence. Do you actually believe what you said?

Is this some form of OCD or hypersensitivity? Because I struggle to understand the type of mind that cares at all about this. And how do such people go through life, especially working in software, where things change constantly?

[sensanaty]

Do you actually not understand why customization is something people want out of the operating system they use for upwards of 8+ hours a day, every single day? Should we disallow changing background images? Should we let people set color accents as they can right now? Should we even let them choose where they want their desktop icons to be, or which desktop icons they can have there? Or should we disable choosing which applications can be locked in the taskbar? Are all of these equally incomprehensible as the choice of where the giant-ass taskbar that permanently fills up a non-negligible percentage of your screen real estate sits to you?

Would you also defend any of the above?

Also, this has been a feature since the XP days, people have built muscle memories around it, and then for literally no reason M$ decides to remove it, requiring 3rd party devs to do their job for them and restore this basic functionality that has been there forever.

> There are gazillions of UI changes in every app we use

And this is a good thing to you somehow? I don't want my OS switching up on me at random every day of the week, I want to login the next day and have everything be where I last placed it, not have some troglodyte PM at M$ trying to suckle on the promotional teet decide where my icons go for me.

> "M$"

Are you perhaps one of the aforementioned troglodyte PMs over there? I've noticed that M$ employees get pretty bothered about that little dollar sign in the name.

[ogogmad]

I don't work as a PM or for Microsoft.

Perhaps the problem is a deeper one, which is constant and likely unnecessary UI makeovers. But among the endless blizzard of these, this is an odd one to make your last stand for. More to the point, onto:

> Do you actually not understand why customization is something people want out of the operating system they use for upwards of 8+ hours a day, every single day?

All the examples you listed are much more significant IMO than whether the taskbar goes to the bottom or top of the screen. I imagine that MS would be less likely to remove those features.

> M$ decides to remove it, requiring 3rd party devs to do their job for them

But why isn't that the end of the issue then? The feature can be fully restored.

[sensanaty]

> But among the endless blizzard of these, this is an odd one to make your last stand for. More to the point, onto

For me it's personally not, it's mostly about how slow and bloated W11 feels. On my 9800X3D (an insanely powerful and fast chip!), explorer is slower than it was in the windows 95 days on the i386 of yore. They've converted half of everything in Windows into a web view and you can feel it, don't even get me started on the adware.

> All the examples you listed are much more significant IMO than whether the taskbar goes to the bottom or top of the screen. I imagine that MS would be less likely to remove those features.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here, to me the taskbar is one of the most central parts of a modern OS next to file navigation and things like the start menu. It sits on your screen, visibly and permanently, and takes up a good chunk of your screen real estate. I know for many people they prefer it vertical because otherwise they have a kilometer-wide, mostly-empty taskbar taking up ~5-10% of the bottom of their screen. For me I keep it on the top of the screen because A) It's what I'm used to since the XP days and B) I find it easier to reach for than on the bottom, because my cursor is pretty much always on the top half of the screen rather than the bottom half.

> But why isn't that the end of the issue then? The feature can be fully restored.

You could make this same argument for basically every feature though, including the ones I listed. Why not remove background images and let it be handled by some 3rd party tool as well? It's about as basic as customization can get in an OS, so it should be handled natively by the OS. Not to mention that, due to it being 3rd party, it's also prone to breaking on Windows updates, and some applications rely on the OS to handle things like where to place the application window, and having things hack around OS-imposed limits like this does lead to weird behaviors and bugs.

It shouldn't require someone download 3rd party tools for functionality this basic, especially since it's already been in there since the basically the inception of the OS. Even MacOS lets you do the vertical taskbar/Dock, and that's the epitome of closed-down customization (not that Apple doesn't have similar problems, such as requiring 3rd party tools for external mice or window tiling via Rectangle).

[pjc50]

> But among the endless blizzard of these, this is an odd one to make your last stand for.

Everyone has their own personal last straw.

Really the pettiness of spending effort to remove a feature for no good reason is the annoying thing here.

[WorldMaker]

> But can you explain why this feature is/was so important?

1) It's a line in the sand between decades of customization versus "my way or the highway [third party tools, some of which get banned for 'hacking' to implement their features, all of which are generally banned in things like corporate environments]".

2) It's a customization feature that has existed since Windows 95. Removing that feature broke decades of user habits.

3) At least one of the third-party tools has been briefly banned by Microsoft Defender for "hacking"/"reverse engineering" Windows. Most of them can be accused of that. The existence of third party tools today does not imply the continued existence of third party tools.

4) It's often compared to how Apple prefers a lack of configuration for "strong opinions". It's an especially funny comparison because Apple has almost always allowed you to move the macOS Dock to different screen edges.

5) It's a great waste of space on Widescreen monitors, and especially Ultrawide monitors. I've been using a right-hand side taskbar since square CRTs, because I felt even in 4:3 that horizontal real estate is at a much higher premium than vertical space. As a user of widescreens, including ultrawide, I especially feel like horizontal real estate is much useful to me as additional app space than vertical space.

6) Microsoft knows how much real estate is spent on a bottom taskbar. They know that's a valuable band of real estate. They've been selling selling ads on it, and assuming things like Copilot can go directly on it without user opt-in because they seem to feel they've got all the space they want and "own" that space. It's not the user's to own anymore.

It's a marginal feature in the number of users that used it, but those that did use it, used it for decades in many cases (myself included), and taking it away is a message that Windows belongs less to the users and User Customization is less important in today's Windows than yesterday's. It's emblematic of so many other problems in Windows 11. As a modest feature, it feels so much like a synecdoche, a part that resembles the whole, a part (of the problem) that represents the whole (problem).

[mbreese]

> It's a marginal feature in the number of users that used it, but those that did use it, used it for decades in many cases

Not only that, but the users who did move the taskbar are more likely to be the "power users" who will help to evangelize Windows in an organization. Those are users who Microsoft should want to keep happy. When you lose them, you lose any sort of grassroots support in an org.

It's a small change in terms of code and number of users affected. It's a big change to the affected users and in user perceptions.

[vasac]

Apparently, it isn't that rare, as I too used to place the taskbar at the top of the screen (I switched to Mac 10 years ago). I simply wanted the taskbar to be near the menu bar so I wouldn't have to move the mouse more than necessary - that was the first thing I customized when installing Windows.

[Kinrany]

Because they're used to it being in a different place?

[Yeul]

Man I'm old. I've been using Windows since 98. I can't stand it when MS designers change shit.

Luckily I'm not the only one and there are many tools to pretty much keep Windows stuck in time.

[edm0nd]

A comment like this tells me you are a child and ignorant.