[moviet]

(Perspective from an American)

Information is the gold of the 21st century. Whoever controls the flow of information has all the wealth and all the power. Therefore, data is the greatest currency in the world.

This outcome was never intended to happen, but ByteDance is taking a chance that the American government will relent. We’ll see in a few months who wins the stalemate.

TikTok has an immense amount of cultural power. The concentration of power scares me, no matter who holds it. But China ultimately having that power scares me more than an American company having it.

Again, this outcome was preventable, but ByteDance is hoping Americans let them continue with the status-quo. We didn’t and we shouldn’t.

[crandycodes]

If the government was also addressing the concentration of power in the American social media apps, I’d buy it. If this was about making laws on what info phones could record about you, I’d buy it. If this was about establishing transparency laws to allow the government to better enforce the privacy laws it has, I’d buy it. If it was a law saying recommendation algorithms can’t be used for political content, I’d buy it (though not sure that’d be constitutional).

Instead this says it’s fine to spy on and manipulate US citizens and concentrate media power, so long as you’re “American”.

[j2bax]

No it’s fine to spy on US citizens as long as we (NSA) have the access and control that we want to the greater world population data. They aren’t okay with China taking that role/opportunity from them.

[seandoe]

You're right. This is what it says. I don't think you have to buy anything outside of that. I think most Americans are more comfortable with American entities spying and manipulating them than a Chinese entity.

[antifa]

China isn't going to send me to death camps for posting an authorized opinion. Most Americans don't care if China has any of our data and would prefer to be protected from US corporations than random far away countries with no physical reach.

[QuesnayJr]

The law would literally allow an EU entity to own it, or a Brazilian entity, or a South African entity.

[TrackerFF]

Like it or not - when it is a US company that does it, the powers that be in the US can do something about it.

When it is a foreign platform controlled by a foreign government, the US government can't do shit about it.

It boils down to national security. We live in an age where (dis)information campaigns have real consequences.

[wonnage]

Facebook needs to be banned too if disinformation is your concern

[scarab92]

I doubt this has anything to do with "data".

I generally view "data is the new oil" arguments as a sign that the journalist doesn't know what they are talking about, especially if they can't characterise what data they are referring to or why it is valuable.

More likely, this is about control of the recommendation algorithm, and therefore control of the narrative.

[infecto]

Absolutely but I do think there is a slice of data. Unlike meta selling its data, we have no idea the full scope of what bytedance collects and sends home. My one thorn is we are so consumed with China but somehow it ignore Russia.

[__MatrixMan__]

I think the difference between these apps is that in China the "recommendation algorithm" is that the wrong sort of people just go missing. There's less heavy lifting for the app to do. That's why people like it more, it itself has a simpler agenda: make people enjoy using it.

In the US, for the most part, the app must do both surveillance and coercion, which is why the kids prefer the Chinese app.

[klabb3]

And how does the recommendation algorithms work? Without user data, it’d be nowhere near as potent at being addictive and dominating in the collective human attention economy.

Oil isn’t useful in its raw form either. Do you think we’d be plagued by cookie banners on almost every single website if they didn’t think collecting data was crucial to their business? Not to mention AI, where the analogy is reinforced for obvious reasons.

So data being the new oil is not a terrible analogy. However, I have to agree with you that the reasoning and justification from journalists is often fluffy and completely off-mark. I’d cut them a bit of slack, they’ve been through a complete economic massacre and talent exodus precisely as a result of this new economy.

[tehjoker]

They specifically said it was in part about preventing ppl from learning too much about the US backed Israeli gaza genocide.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/why-people-think-us-effor...

[sanderjd]

This article is just reporting that people on social media believe it to be about Gaza, it adds zero information on the veracity of that belief.

[tehjoker]

"Still, TikTok’s opponents hadn’t relented. Jacob Helberg, a member of a congressional research and advisory panel called the U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission, has been working on building a bipartisan, bicoastal alliance of China hawks, united in part by their desire to ban TikTok. Over the past year, he says, he has met with more than 100 members of Congress, and brought up TikTok with all of them.

Some lawmakers built momentum for the bill by holding hearings to introduce their colleagues to arguments against TikTok, Helberg said. He also co-hosted a hearing that focused in part on TikTok.

It was slow going until Oct. 7. The attack that day in Israel by Hamas and the ensuing conflict in Gaza became a turning point in the push against TikTok, Helberg said. People who historically hadn’t taken a position on TikTok became concerned with how Israel was portrayed in the videos and what they saw as an increase in antisemitic content posted to the app.

Anthony Goldbloom, a San Francisco-based data scientist and tech executive, started analyzing data TikTok published in its dashboard for ad buyers showing the number of times users watched videos with certain hashtags. He found far more views for videos with pro-Palestinian hashtags than those with pro-Israel hashtags. While the ratio fluctuated, he found that at times it ran 69 to 1 in favor of videos with pro-Palestinian hashtags."

linked in the article https://www.wsj.com/tech/how-tiktok-was-blindsided-by-a-u-s-...

[ok123456]

I'm an American too, and I trust an app that has "china" somewhere in it's org chart more than Zuckerberg or any meta product.

[infecto]

Is the hate for Meta so great that you actually trust a Chinese app more? China absolutely has zero privacy protection and everything explicitly runs through the great censor wall.

Don’t mince words. Meta absolutely has issues with data collection but it’s comical to think they somehow China is better.

[bcrosby95]

As an American who has more power over me, powerful people in China or powerful people in America?

Who is more likely to give my data to my government to adverse affect?

Who is more likely to lobby my government to adverse affect?

[ethanwillis]

What reasons would a foreign government want information about foreign citizens of its adversary?

At the end of the day you are the outgroup when it comes to the CCP and it'd be best to remember that.

[daemoens]

If you are an American, the intelligence community already treats you like you are the outgroup.

[ethanwillis]

Which is another problem entirely but it's whataboutism. It says nothing about the CCPs motivations.

[sanderjd]

As of yesterday, powerful people in China had a lot of power over you. As of today, they have a lot less. That's a good thing.

[ThrowawayR2]

It's endlessly amusing that people are willing to speak positively of an authoritarian state, not even for a paycheck which one might not forgive but at least understand, but merely for their daily dose of brainrot[0] videos.

[0] In the dictionary sense of the word: https://corp.oup.com/news/brain-rot-named-oxford-word-of-the...

[seabird]

>Who is more likely to lobby my government to adverse affect?

Dude, the concern is that allowing TikTok is quite literally allowing the CCP to indirectly lobby. It's how this whole thing got started in earnest.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/07/business/tiktok-phone-cal...

The geopolitical utility of the app is to give the CCP more power to manipulate and hurt you. They want to get closer to the level of power that domestic US powers-that-be have. I'm blown away that this seems to lost on so many people commenting here

[ok123456]

Maybe my interests and those of the general American public are more in line with the "CCP" than Israel regarding international affairs.

[seabird]

Putting CCP in quotes is silly. It is not a conspiracy theory that the CCP exerts an extreme level of control over ByteDance.

Your interests are probably not aligned with the CCP. The American public's certainly aren't. The Chinese government wants to achieve a hegemony and export their economy and culture by undermining the US wherever they can. We don't fit into that in a way that won't result in a markedly worse life for us.

TikTok would boost content about how Israelis making target practice out of Palestinian children is great and needs to happen more often if it made the US look bad. That you can't see that, or can't separate that instance from other possibilities, is exactly why TikTok is under scrutiny.

[kshacker]

What is the point of App Store rules if your privacy continues to be at risk. Oh yes, every single app must declare if it uses name, or email, or address, or camera, but all of them are exempt except TikTok? If you want to make the App Stores more stringent, sure, go for it.

The issue is ability to manipulate people. However, should not the NSA monitor how the algo is working, and be empowered to cut off TikTok if for example you start seeing a million videos saying "Taiwan, the eastern province of China". I am sure we will still have control, we just need to be smart enough to "tap" into what content is being fed.

[cameronh90]

What are China going to do to with my data that US companies haven't already done?

[sanderjd]

It has nothing to do with your data. That whole thing is a red herring.

The risk with TikTok is that it presents media entirely algorithmically, and that algorithm is controllable by the Chinese government and is opaque to everyone else.

[brandonmenc]

Help China's military.

[forgetfulness]

Data collection is a worry of the previous decade, the recommendation algorithm is the battle ground, the US has decided that it much prefers having Meta push its white supremacist and gender wars drivel non stop than what was being shown in TikTok (Israeli atrocities)

[infecto]

While we are at it we should show the Hamas atrocities while we are at it. Would not be complete, without someone of the fake heart pull videos that Hamas traditionally put on as well.

[ok123456]

As demonstrated by this ban, we're objectively worse now.

The true threat to our democracy is a foreign power. It's just not China.

[neither_color]

What's your objective metric? I would say one side has way more websites and apps blocked than the other. So if we go by that measure then I'd say the one with more websites and apps blocked is objectively worse.

[ok123456]

Civil rights aren't a zero-sum game. America must lead by example by not silencing 170 million people because of some "intelligence" that's likely less reputable than Saddam having WMDs or the Marty Rimm report.

[infecto]

Yes banning TikTok is a threat to democracy.

[383toast]

Unironically it is

[sanderjd]

How so? The law was passed by democratically elected representatives in the US government.

[infecto]

Just because you say it does not make it so. Oh the irony.

[lqstuart]

I'm an American, and I have worked for both Zuck-owned and Chinese-owned companies, and you really, REALLY might want to re-think your stance. It's extremely ironic that we as Americans have this "question authority" thing so deeply ingrained in our DNA that it pushes us towards authoritarianism just to be contrarian.

[sanderjd]

Well that's very naive. It sounds like reverse polarization. Thing A is so bad that Thing B is less bad just because it isn't Thing A.

[aborochoff]

Because youre ignorant of what china somewhere in the org chart means?

[ok123456]

Please share a source that's not a CIA funded NGO or think tank.

[sanderjd]

"Please share a source" is an incredibly dumb retort in the realm of geopolitics.

"Please share a source that the allied powers are going to invade the beaches of Normandy". You can't, because people are working incredibly hard to keep that secret.

[ok123456]

So you don't have any? ok.

[sanderjd]

Yes, there is very little public sourcing for what hostile powers plan to do in a geopolitical struggle. That's how it goes.

It is perfectly reasonable to infer what might happen based on past actions by the specific powers, and on world history. Attempting to gain geopolitical influence through propaganda is nothing new.

[jkubicek]

What can China do to our social networks that is materially different than what American tech companies are already doing today?

Maybe I'm being naive because I don't use TikTok, but all the partisan misinformation I see is being spread by either Americans on American social networks or maybe Russian disinformation bots operating on American social networks.

[varsketiz]

Given enough time - subvert your government. Take control of your country :))

[cscurmudgeon]

I'm an American too, and I DON’T trust an app that has "china" somewhere in it's org chart.

Answer this: who has genocided 10s of millions? Who has crushed Tibet and threatens Taiwan?

CCP or Zuckerberg?

[wruza]

Nice substitution, now let’s try it in “ByteDance or US Govt” form.

(Please don’t ask naively how US controls mass-media, no desire to follow up on that.)

[motorest]

> Nice substitution, now let’s try it in “ByteDance or US Govt” form.

Not substitution, and you somehow missed the fact that it's China's CCP, not ByteDance. It's China's CCP that acts through a de-facto shell corporation called ByteDance, the same CCP that stands behind the Uighur genocide, Tibet annexation, threat of invasion of Taiwan, etc. That's who you are defending as the desirable option.

[wruza]

I didn't miss anything of that. It only seems to you because you happen to have a very blind eye on the literal inverse (I guess).

[undersuit]

Yep, there are no rules in the US, anyone can own a company and do anything they want. There is no evil government pulling the stings from behind the curtain.

https://www.fcc.gov/proceedings-actions/mergers-transactions...

https://www.reuters.com/breakingviews/biden-admin-delays-enf...

https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/6/21168079/grindr-sold-chine...

Are you even aware of the context of the reasons why Tiktok went dark? Did they do it with no provocation? By accepting the US's arguments for the Tiktok ban we're just aligning ourselves with the same ideology of "the enemy" you're trying to malign.

[__MatrixMan__]

What do you suppose is gained by making CCP pay Zuckerberg for the privilege? Or are you proposing that he'd turn their money down?

The US has done plenty of that sort of thing in south America and the middle east, but it has always had the extra burden of maintaining a narrative under which it was not doing those things. If we let the US ban services that are contrary to its narratives, what's left to stop the US from behaving like China even more than it already does?

[sanderjd]

Yeah we may have to cross that bridge later. (Indeed, I think it's a major concern that Musk controls Twitter and has demonstrated an inability to criticize the Chinese government time and time again.) But we can at least cross this bridge first.

[Lionga]

America has genocided 10s of millions for what it is worth. From Native Americans to slaves to all the wars in the last years to "export democracy". If any country can rival China in killing people needlessly it is the USA for sure.

[notavalleyman]

Hmm if Saddam killed 50 thousand innocent Iraqis each year, and American intervention only cost 40k lives each year ... Then do we deduct 10, or add 40, to the "ten million" number you came up with?

[mancerayder]

In the 21st century the United States did this? In the 1980s? At what point do we compare countries in a modern era versus a bullet list of their historical record.

By that standard, Norway, Sweden and Denmark should be shunned for their slavery, raping, looting and imperialist colonizing abroad -- in the 10-11th centuries.

[wumeow]

You get one guess for who caused the spike on this graph of global deaths.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S014067361...

[wruza]

Not to mention incarceration rates, 119 vs 541 people per 100k. 4.5x difference to an oppressive state.

[lavela]

Don't forget about all the deaths related to unnecessary poverty or lack in health care.

[Retric]

If you’re comparing either current or historic atrocities, China is going to lose badly.

Trying to mix and match is obviously just disingenuous here.

[juunpp]

See Myanmar for what Facebook has done.

[ok123456]

Then don't use it.

[cscurmudgeon]

Yeah, and it is within my rights to call for controls over its ownership. After all, we are a free country.

Just like one person getting vaccinated is useless, I want the country to be inoculated from insidious propaganda outside of democratic control and review.

And it is within my rights to point out the hypocrisy of those who cry freedom

https://www.cnn.com/2025/01/16/tech/tiktok-refugees-rednote-...

[ok123456]

No it's not.

[sanderjd]

Of course it is. What point are you even trying to make?

[cscurmudgeon]

Yes, it is. I am doing it right here though, lol.

[ok123456]

Tibet was a feudal society. The only people who were "crushed" were the people landowners and the elite monks.

Both sides of the strait want the status quo in Taiwan for various reasons. Detent would be the correct approach instead of further military armament. It would be like if the Soviet Union continued to militarize Cuba from the Cuban missile crisis until the current day.

I'm more concerned about the genocide in Gaza than some CIA assets in Germany playing make-believe.

[anon84873628]

Well if you want to talk about genocide & Facebook... https://systemicjustice.org/article/facebook-and-genocide-ho...

[feyman_r]

Can you recommend some social apps from China that we may have not paid attention to? I’m assuming there’s a list more than ‘RedNote’. I tried using WeChat but it’s not where my network hangs, unfortunately.

You probably know some that have enough non-China presence.

[cscurmudgeon]

Why not just use RedNote? It has all the freedom that is deprived in the US [1]. /s

[1] https://www.cnn.com/2025/01/16/tech/tiktok-refugees-rednote-...

[infecto]

You almost fooled me with the sarcasm. I am concerned with how many folks in this thread have massive sympathy for China. No doubt the West has had many issues and continues to do so but China is getting painted here as the bastion of freedom and openness. That they trust a Chinese app more than Meta when it’s absolutely worse in mainland then the lives they have in the West.

[bdangubic]

with china wysiwyg, with USA you believe you have freedom of ____ (you don’t) and you believe “US-owned” (X is not, hence the quotes) social media is in any way “net positive” for its citizens…

[infecto]

Not sure what your point is? Why are you using quotes on something I did not even say? Weird.

[Spooky23]

It’s offensive to the notion of free speech as Americans profess to respect.

If the capabilities of these services are so dangerous, we should have laws and rules to control the danger. Instead we’ve done some nationalist cowing to send a message, and we’re arm-twisting Zuck to adapt Facebook to the political expediency of the moment.

[motorest]

> It’s offensive to the notion of free speech as Americans profess to respect.

The issue has absolutely nothing to do with free speech. China's CCP spying and conducting psyops is not free speech, and forcing China to sell it's controlling position on TikTok has nothing to do with free speech.

That's, amusing enough, the propaganda that's being pushed onto you, which even forces you to criticize a policy that you failed to even be informed about it's rationale and main points. You're fooled into believing that eliminating one of China's attack vectors is somehow an attack on free speech.

[ncr100]

That's a misread, tiktok speech .. eg eating toxic Tide Pods for competition .. can be gotten and made in the USA still.

[Spooky23]

That’s not the point.

Where does it stop? Should my company by eyeing a switch to Oracle services because SAP is German?

[ncr100]

The questions in the message I responded to were:

> offensive to the notion of free speech

And, something about New Law (vs Policy enforcement by administrator of agencies or political elected leadership positions), to prevent damage from speech .. via Facebook.

I wanted to fast-forward past this second question, as I think it's a red herring here -- Facebook Management and their operation in the USA is not legally beholden to the government of China. Tiktok is, so it's different. So I rejected the second question.

Then back to the first, the notion of free speech and taking offense. I recognize free speech is not total, as I understand my rights here in the USA. And I see corporations as existing Only by sanction of government. Therefore the authority still rests within the State to moderate corporate behavior.

Tah dah .. that's why I think it's the correct point.

What am I overlooking?

Then, the hypothetical (?) about Oracle and Germany, yes. If your company reasonably can expect to be seen to be working with a partner, that's offering services similar to Oracle, and which is legally obligated to the worldwide operation constraints of an enemy of the state of your company's incorporation (USA), like China, then yes.

[Spooky23]

Service operators are responsible for following the law in locales they are operating in. Other than existing, what law is TikTok violating?

I’m all for controlling propaganda. Where are the rules?

[whatshisface]

We should have consumer freedom under equal protections. Imagine if the FDA only regulated imported food and drugs, and if those regulations were only related to trade wars.

[Etherlord87]

In Europe it's currently in reverse. We have harsh regulations for food produced in Europe and import food not satisfying those regulations.

[lentil_soup]

First time I hear about this, have you got anything to read about it?

[Etherlord87]

https://www.foodwatch.org/en/foodwatch-calls-on-european-lea...

There's also a problem of food coming from Ukraine - initially Poland allowed Ukrainian trucks to enter Poland as a transit through EU, as the sea passage was blocked by russians. That passage is no longer blocked, however, and there were incidents where it was detected the food was actually bought and processed in Poland.

[calculatte]

I'm willing to bet Americans are the most propagandized people on Earth. And it's done by our government with the "public/private partnership" aka "unconstitutional workarounds" of all legacy media and social media outlets. Facebook has admitted as much, and the Twitter files proves it.

China controlling the flow of information is the same. The only difference is China is upfront about what information they are feeding everyone.

[Clubber]

>I'm willing to bet Americans are the most propagandized people on Earth.

Perhaps. It might feel that way because we have multiple sources of propaganda and interests trying to sway us while places like China only have one. We have political party propaganda, government propaganda, corporate propaganda, special interest group propaganda, religious propaganda, grass roots propaganda, etc. China has government propaganda that encompasses all of that.

I also think the US apparatus' are just better at hiding which information is propaganda and which isn't; this makes it harder to spot. China has full control so it doesn't really matter if its propaganda is believable. Once you bring up a generation on it, the propaganda turns into reality.

[scarecrowbob]

With enough of the proper training the fnords are invisible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fnord

[calculatte]

Exactly.

So what is the tiktok ban really about? If it's about the lack of narrative control, we should see the same ban being applied to RedNote.

[Clubber]

>So what is the tiktok ban really about? If it's about the lack of narrative control

Probably part protectionism of our social media sites, part retribution for China banning our social media sites, part an attempt to control the narrative from at least a foreign competitor perspective.

An interesting thing that might happen is the influx of US users switching to RedNote will be difficult for the Chinese government to sensor. This could introduce some western culture and values into everyday people in China.

>we should see the same ban being applied to RedNote.

Good point. I'm not sure the government is equipped to handle this sort of thing without creating an agency with pretty broad powers. I would prefer that didn't happen.

[jewelry]

You guess? As a Chinese I can tell you you are wrong by 10x if not more.

[calculatte]

As a Chinese, you know what you can't talk about. As an American we are "surprised" when our "free speech" results in overt government-sponsored censorship.

You are very wrong.

[titanomachy]

You can still say whatever the hell you want, unless you're actively inciting violence against protected minorities. You just have to do it on one of the many social media platforms that aren't owned by China.

[quotemstr]

> Whoever controls the flow of information has all the wealth and all the power

Control of information is not a legitimate function of the state. The only real reason to ban TikTok or any other platform is establishing control over narratives, and the government must never in a free society put a thumb on the scale of ideas.

So what if the Chinese can boost this message or that message? Is our society so fragile it'll fall apart if people are exposed to the wrong ideas?

The TikTok ban is awful not because TikTok is great, but because it's the state arrogating power to control what's in people's minds. It was no right to do that!

[giantrobot]

> Is our society so fragile it'll fall apart if people are exposed to the wrong ideas?

This reductionism to "exposure to ideas" is absolutely absurd. TikTok and any other algorithmic feed isn't problematic because it exposes anyone to anything. They're problematic because those feeds can be used to actively shape behavior.

Shaping behavior is not very difficult if you have a lot of information about someone and control of what they see for hours a day. If shaping behavior didn't work no social media company would make the billions of dollars that they do. TikTok fads wouldn't exist if it was just a simple exposure to ideas.

TikTok in particular is worth targeting because of the way state security laws work in China. There's no legal issues with the state apparatus accessing company data. There's no judicial review. The state just has access to companies' back ends.

Since we know social media feeds can shape personal behavior and China can exert any control they want over Chinese companies, it's not a logical leap to realize a state hostile to interests of the North America and Europe having control over something people use for hours a day is a bad thing.

There's a whole cohort of the population for who TikTok is their primary source of "news". Their world view is shaped by what's presented to them. They're not "exposed to ideas" but targeted with specific narratives. Because all users have different targeting you may never see the same sort of feed as the person sitting next to you.

[scarecrowbob]

This line of thinking is just a revisit of MKUltra's obsession with the idea that folks, in general, are highly manipulated.

If you look at the arc of that very motivated thinking, and if you look at the work that the US government did to try and implement the kind of control you're describing here, I feel the only correct conclusion is that it's almost impossible to actually fabricate what folks think with any systematic success.

The best you can do is, maybe, "Coke is it", and even that is more of a product of peoples' material tastes and dislike of New Coke.

I don't think there actually is much evidence to support the idea that "social media feeds can shape personal behavior" in the granular and targeted way that you (and many folks) are implying here, in which someone's worldview is shaped for the short-term goals of XYZ actor.

I think you probably understand this, which is why you hedge into the abstract idea that social media is simple "shaping" via altering a statistical means.

I agree that it is possible to expose extant impulses as "legitimate" in ways that open folks to acting differently (I certainly wish I had understood how flexible gender expression could be when I was 14 instead of 40- I would have probably led a much different life). I think that kind of exposure to larger communities really does have an effect on people, because it certainly had an effect on people.

However, I find that to be very different than creating impulses that aren't there- I think that kind work requires, for instance, a system of bullies in school to beat folks when they don't conform to "accepted" gender roles.

But even if it were true that actors could create ideas, it begs an obvious question: how do you tell the difference between your "authentic" views and the "implanted" ideas of the media you consume?

I (personally) don't think that you (personally) have completely had your opinions actively shaped by some state actors.

I think a historical dialect merges our lived experiences with the communication we get from the folks around us: fundamentally we are drawing conclusions based on information from our surroundings in toto. Since it's very difficult to get people to ignore their lived experiences for very long, and the cost of doing that work requires the largest military and prison system in the 300k year long history of homo sapiens, I have a hard time believe that "media" can do that work very effectively. Doubly so in a world where there are multiple televisual streams and no one takes the NY Times seriously.

But if it were possible to easily, through media, manipulate whole populations, it really does beg that question stated above:

if "brainwashing" is possible, why haven't you assumed that you personally, have been the long-term target of those kinds of programs by the state which rules you?

[chrisco255]

The ban is great because TikTok is a foreign company that is operating with asymmetric privilege given that American social media companies are banned in China. It's unacceptable for a foreign company to be given network privileges without American companies getting the same level playing field in China.

> So what if the Chinese can boost this message or that message

Propaganda is effective. Let's not pretend it isn't. This isn't freedom of speech from an American citizen being censored. This is a militarized, industrial, foreign nation exerting influence over the people of its chief rival while it actively blocks American companies from doing the same within its borders.

[elsonrodriguez]

> Is our society so fragile it'll fall apart if people are exposed to the wrong ideas?

Yes.

[__MatrixMan__]

What we're seeing here is American tech companies making America more like China--I'd rather tolerate both online and find a different way to mitigate the threat of anyone having this kind of influence.

[banku_brougham]

I fear our govt more than Chinas. Just put CSPAN on in the background for a while. Our government's north star is war.

[ncr100]

Our government is more than that simplistic reduction.

[pbsds]

If concentration of control over concentration scares you then a social media not owned by the US should be welcome. Now you have an all-american echo chamber.

[ridhwanh]

I don't think this is a data issue, but more of control over media in a sovereign nation. In a free market, can another sovereign nation hold a chunk of the market share in media? I don't know. All I can think of is the impact on regular everyday Americans who use TikTok to make a living.

[ramoz]

We’ve arguably been a better society with TikTok than with any other large-scale American platform. The moderation policies on Twitter, Facebook, Reddit, or any media outlet have been egregious, and more detrimental to the cultural health of the United States.

At the same time, we’re still not equipped to fully understand the complex and often hidden ways that information can influence people online. Some critics go as far as attributing mind-control capabilities to TikTok, yet everyone’s “For You” page is different—driven largely by a user-led algorithm rather than top-down editorial control.

So we've stripped back a genuine outlet for the masses. And now must accept prescription/participation for any similar digital experience or large-scale information sharing in our country.

[titanomachy]

> everyone’s “For You” page is different—driven largely by a user-led algorithm rather than top-down editorial control.

But do you really know this? Just because your homepage is different from other people, doesn't mean there isn't a thumb on the scale.

Of course, Meta and the like also tweak their algorithms, in their case to maximize engagement and profit. Who knows what TikTok might be optimizing for?

I personally think we should regulate the shit out of all these things, especially the hyper-addictive short-form video brain rot, and especially for children.

[ToucanLoucan]

More perspective as another American: ridiculous inflation, staggering economic inequality, pathetic education standards, ridiculous emissions regulations, ensuring women's access to healthcare, crumbling infrastructure, the housing market, school shootings, student and medical debt, and of course, healthcare, are all issues that are actively demolishing our society right now, and the Government won't do a fucking thing.

They did however manage to ban one of the brain-rotting apps. Not even remotely a majority, but one.

I don't need one line of CCP propaganda to know the American government is a fucking joke.

[jmyeet]

3 comments total from this account totaling 28 karma at the time of writing and this of the top comment on a 1500+ comment thread about a major issue? Ok.

That fact is relevant to the issue. This comment is the most “State Department talking points” comment you could make and the finger is put on the scales to elevate it.

That’s exactly what Google and Meta do with content via recommendation algorithms and comments.

And it’s what TikTok doesn’t do, which is the exact reason it was banned.

Oldheads will remember when comment karma was public. Its hidden now basically to hide just how manipulated comment rankings are.

[dleeftink]

Maybe an oldhead can shed some more light on this: hasn't it always been the case that comments are ranked by a combination of timeliness and votes, as to prevent any single comment to dominate the top of the page for the duration of a story's frontpage time?

[jmyeet]

Comments will absolutely get rotated so the same comment generally doesn’t dominate. My understanding was there was a lot of manual intervention in this process. I could be wrong.

It’s also true it’s never been a strict ranking by net votes either. Getting a lot of upvotes quickly will elevate a comment.

It’s also suspected that certain users will have their comments upranked or downranked based on their history as well as manual intervention.

Organic ranking still exists but there are many, many thumbs on the scale. Hiding comment karma just makes that less obvious.

I don’t normally engage in HN meta-commentary. In fact, it’s highly discouraged. It’s somewhat ironic that an obvious, egregious case of content manipulation here is directly relevant to the issue at hand: the TikTok ban.

[infecto]

You do realize that comment weight it’s time and point based? 0min comment will show up at the top. Get out of here with your conspiracies.

[moviet]

Lol. I lurk on Hacker News. I am not a U.S. government employee.

I just felt compelled to state what I thought was missing from the conversation.

[jmyeet]

The issue isn’t about you per se. it’s about what HN promotes. Since we can’t see comment karma anymore, we usually can’t tell.

But your case gives us a window into that. 28 karma from 3 comments, none of them grey, puts a really low ceiling on the karma this comment has.

Again, nothing against you personally.

[d_burfoot]

I'm also an American - I think this action makes us look weak and scared. Like our tech can't compete with Chinese tech. Strong nations act according to a set of principles, even if doing so is sometimes inconvenient or dangerous. Weak nations are constantly compromising their principles in order to survive.

[umanwizard]

> But China ultimately having that power scares me more than an American company having it.

Why?

[moviet]

As an American, support for democracy and (small-l) liberal values is the best type of government.

These liberties are built into the U.S. Constitution. And, while the U.S. government makes mistakes, this is the ideal we strive towards.

[umanwizard]

“If people criticize Israel on your app we will ban it” is the antithesis of liberal values.

Btw, lots of nice stuff is in the Chinese constitution too. Doesn’t really matter if it’s not followed in practice.

[titanomachy]

I just went on instagram reels to disprove your point by finding posts critical of Israel. They certainly exist, under the search term "gaza". But the search term "Israel" is straight-up blocked, so obviously the censorship is real.

EDIT: example critical post: https://www.instagram.com/p/DEYK037S2N-/

[zoklet-enjoyer]

People were trying to get tik tok sold before the current war in Israel

[umanwizard]

China hawk republicans, yes. Not enough people to matter. The democrats only got on board, giving it enough support to actually pass, once it became the main place pro-Palestinian content was spreading.

[nthingtohide]

US govt. doesn't make mistakes. It actually plans dismantling other countries over decages building civil society and NGO assets. You are horribly misinformed and using less acerbic language to make it palatable.

[datavirtue]

I have started to change my stance on China. Is it worse than the US if you hold them both up to the light? Sure, all of us can cite Chinese ills that we don't have, especially in regard to individual freedoms and democracy. But those things can be fixed.

China has never in its history practiced imperialism. They don't have a burgeoning and entrenched oligarchy.

What good is democracy when popular initiatives never see the light of day? What good is it when political parties ignore court ruling and continue to hold elections on Gerry meandered maps? What good is it when people are continually enslaved by debt and taken advantage of?

I'm not arguing for China here but we have a handful of social media properties controlled by one man who can change the narrative on anything with the drop of a hat.

We don't even really promote the individual (liberal democracy) anymore. The rich and powerful leverage ignorance to hold power. It is disgusting.

And for the record, I still hold onto American exceptionalism as principal and believe America is the light of the world. This experiment has allowed many to ascend from poverty and make something of themselves despite what they were born into many, many times over.

[gchamonlive]

So why not break down Meta and Google first? Too convenient.

A better read I think is just Trump paving the way for Musk and his supporters to monopolize control of data and attention. First step for a silent oligopoly of democracy.

[locallost]

It's a fine point of view, except we've been exposed to decades of propaganda how the Chinese Government is awful for controlling the flow of information, especially from the outside. I have a feeling the West is in a trap of its own making, it will either be consistent and allow what it asks others to allow, or will lose face because everything it allegedly stood for turned out to be BS.

[nimbius]

Bytedance already won.

Biden flat-out admitted he was not going to enforce the law once it passed, and Trump is pushing for a 90 day "Extension" because "finding a buyer" has proven more difficult than initially expected. this statement is intended to save face as bytedance has repeatedly refused to sell.

What we are watching now is US leaders in both houses of the oligarchy (democratic and republican) scramble to undo policy that was written by people who think the US still has the type of pull it had in the sixties. banning Tiktok in the USA would mean one of the largest social platforms of more than 150 nations combined would have zero US presence.

the US must constantly and vehemently evangelize western values and hegemony in order to protect and maintain the international neoliberal hegemony it has come to enjoy. Washington realizes they have effectively and accidentally cut themselves off from a system of propaganda they benefit from domestically (election rhetoric and stumping) as well as internationally (hearts and minds doctrine of diplomacy and soft power.)

Its bad to operate in a contested environment with china, but its worse to endure a denied environment where the only voices are not yours.

[saturn8601]

Interesting point...that leads one to think why did they make this stumble? US generally is a smooth political operator. I immediately go to the theory that their hand was forced to make this bad move by another actor (maybe pro-israel donors). Of course who knows the truth really.

[galangalalgol]

The reason Trump will reverse it is that it helped him get elected. He said this in interviews already. "It is hard to hate it when...".

It also helped that Hungarian candidate when tiktok was used by Russia to push him...

It should be gone. I wish we would ditch FB too. And SEO. Kill all the algos and let me find stuff via regex.

[parpfish]

I assume he’s also trying to line up a buyer that would be friendly to him

[warner25]

Regarding Trump, yes. Also,

> Kill all the algos and let me find stuff via regex

I love this. As someone who increasingly feels old and dissatisfied with what computing is turning into, I'm going to start using this along with things like "you'll have to pry local accounts, passwords, and plain text email from my cold, dead hands."

[dfadsadsf]

> It also helped that Hungarian candidate when tiktok was used by Russia to push him...

That's actually misinformation and narrative invented to support coup by Romanian security services/supreme court to cancel elections. No Russians were involved. TikTok campaign was financed by center-right party but backfired in unexpected ways.

https://www.politico.eu/article/investigation-ties-romanian-...

[galangalalgol]

The linked article doesn't say that, nor does any of the ones it linked to about the eu investigation.

[katamari-damacy]

All that talk about Israel and genocide is what got TikTok banned, even as TikTok was heavily demoting such truthful content. AIPAC couldn't take it. A lot of issues that are Israel first are disguised as America First by the Deep Christian State.

Whatever dude.

[arczyx]

> But China ultimately having that power scares me more than an American company having it.

Well for people not from US, China having that power is absolutely better. After all, unlike the US, China hadn't invaded another country or instigated coup for the past 40+ years.

[gaogao]

40+ is a bit weird of a timeline to give considering they invaded Vietnam 45 years ago, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War

[arnavpraneet]

yes, checks out? that seems to be why it is worded that way. They can't write 45 because of that invasion, so 40 seems to be the ballpark?

[infecto]

Oh get real. China is equally a bad actor in more modern times. They have massive human rights issues, suppress free speech, took over HK before the agreed upon time. It’s not like they are some angel in this scenario.

[moviet]

The U.S. makes mistakes. Everyone is free talk about them and try to correct them.

Sometimes, we overcorrect or under-correct - or are slow to address things.

But we admit them. I think that counts for a lot.

I think it is unfair to point to military mistakes as undermining all of U.S. credibility.

[kmbfjr]

It took forty years for the country to begin atonement for the hardships inflicted on its own citizens during WWII, and forty years after that discussion began, we’re again talking about interment camps.

We make mistakes and learn nothing from them.

[arczyx]

> I think it is unfair to point to military mistakes as undermining all of U.S. credibility.

US didn't invade Iraq and other countries "by mistake". Same with all the coups and regime change operations. If you think these many instances are mistake, well then I have a bridge to sell to you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r...

[theossuary]

We're actually not allowed to talk about them, see the Palestine genocide content being suppressed in US public spaces and social media platforms, but not on Tiktok.

[filoleg]

Oh yeah?

Because in the first half of last year, pro-Palestine discourse has been occupying heavy majority of my social media feeds (twitter, reddit, ig, etc.) without me even engaging with any of that content. Not even mentioning all the pro-Palestine protests outside that I got to witness myself. And I had a chance to witness plenty of anti-Trump protests (both irl and in the media of all kinds) during his first presidency as well. Open any social media, and you will see tons and tons of people talking plenty of very strong anti-Trump and anti-Biden rhetoric.

How well would any of that fly in China?

P.S. If pro-Palestine content was “suppressed in US public spaces and social media platforms,” they were doing a really poor job of it. My IG and twitter feeds were just filled with it, despite me hitting “not interested” on most of it. Meanwhile, TikTok algorithm was actually respecting my preferences, and my feed there was filled with stuff I actually cared to see (like 3d printing projects).

[snozolli]

unlike the US, China hadn't invaded another country or instigated coup for the past 40+ years.

No need to invade when you can do neo-colonialism to take over Africa, social media to influence the vote of your primary rival, and forcing a puppet government in Hong Kong (i.e. a coup). Not to mention destroying coral reefs to build artificial islands for military outposts in other nations' waters and blatant sabre rattling against Taiwan and even maritime attacks on peaceful neighbors.

China is regularly swinging their fist within range to tweak noses and crying foul when they're called out on their aggressive behavior. The only reason a war hasn't started is because their victims haven't stood up to their nonsense yet.

[bezier-curve]

[removing because I don't like HN's comment system and drunkenly engaged in a pointless posturing contest with a tanker.]

[arczyx]

> but saying China's power is "better" feels tone-deaf, especially considering places like Hong Kong

I'm no expert on Hongkong, but I'm pretty sure it's nowhere as bad as a genocide where 50% of the victims are children funded and supplied by the US. So yes, China is better.

> Specifically, every one of us who worked in an emergency, intensive care, or surgical setting treated pre-teen children who were shot in the head or chest on a regular or even a daily basis. It is impossible that such widespread shooting of young children throughout Gaza, sustained over the course of an entire year is accidental or unknown to the highest Israeli civilian and military authorities.

https://www.gazahealthcareletters.org/usa-letter-oct-2-2024

[bezier-curve]

[removing because I don't like HN's comment system and drunkenly engaged in a pointless posturing contest with a tanker.]

[arczyx]

Yes you need to get sober first, maybe then you'll realize how absurd it is calling someone who are against Israeli tanks killing children as a 'tanker'.

[infecto]

Your taking your emotions for the Gaza conflict and applying it to the issue at hand TikTok.

[bezier-curve]

I deleted that comment because it got downvotes. Downvote this one too, tech startup incubator trolls.

Edit: Also reaffirming my position the parent commenter is a combative CCP apologizer using irrelevant comparisons, as all the sibling conversation clearly points out.