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by iterance 564 days ago
Just thought you might want to know - it's "per se" not "per say"/variations thereof.
1 comments

Per se is latin for "for itself".
Maybe word for word, but "per se" means "as such".
I'd say "by itself".
If you translate it literally, "per" is closer to "for".

If you don't translate it literally, I'd vote for "in itself". "In itself" (viewed in its essential qualities; considered separately from other things[0]) has a different meaning than "by itself" (alone/unaided). And to me it's clear that "per se" pretty much universally means the former.

[0] https://www.google.com/search?q=in+itself

A less literal translation like "essentially" or "in essence" is deployed by master Latin translators like Robert Fagles. I've even seen "in a vacuum" which does a better job at communicating the original intent than a string of cryptic prepositions.
Sometimes I use it (maybe wrongly?) as a synonym to "technically".

"Maybe John is not the boss per se, but we follow his orders"

"Maybe John is not technically the boss, but we follow his orders"

That's another valid translation for the same preposition.

And there are many definitions of English "for" as well. This would fit the one used in the phrase "if not for this, ..." In other words, for itself = by virtue of itself, through the existence of itself.

Also note in terms of Indo European roots, per is a cognate with English for.

Prepositions are some of the least translatable bits of language. For that matter, even without translation they tend to get slippery within a language, especially over time (one that springs to mind is the whole “quarter of” referring to a time which I first encountered some 50 years ago and still don’t know if it’s quarter to or quarter after).¹

1. Cue some dude to tell me in 3…2…1²

2. And this knowledge will promptly disappear from my brain five minutes later, sort of like the guy I knew in my 20s whose name was either Jack or Chad and to this date, I still am not sure, but I do know that every single time I called him by name, I got it wrong and it totally wasn’t on purpose even though he didn’t believe me.

That's my cue!

I once had a Spanish teacher, who also had problems remembering what that kind of time specification stands for and I came up with maybe a trick to remember. We do the same thing in German, so I guess it translates:

Lets say you have 11:00. That's easy. But what about 11:15? We would say "quarter 12", so I guess the English version is "quarter of 12". How to memorize, that this is 11:15? Well, you can imagine a round clock and the minute pointer has moved _quarter of its way to 12_. So you only have a quarter of that hour "already done". 10:30? We say "half 11". So I guess English is "half of 11", meaning that the minute pointer has moved half the way to 11.

Maybe this will help.

(Actually I personally usually don't use those ways of specifying the time, neither in English nor in German. I just say the 24h format as it is written: "11:15" is "eleven fifteen", 13:35 is "thirteen thirtee five" not 1pm something.)

Whatever "quarter of 12" means in English, whether it's 11:45 (quarter to 12) or 12:15 (quarter past 12), it definitely isn't 11:15. We do fraction of an hour forward or backward relative to the hour mentioned, not fraction of an hour elapsed in approach to hour mentioned.

I recently encountered a German asking for the English phrase equivalent to bis unter, looking for a phrase like "up to below". There isn't one in common use. We just don't count things in equivalent ways.

This definitely doesn't translate - if you say "half 11" to a British person you are getting them at 11:30, not 10:30.
> Lets say you have 11:00. That's easy. But what about 11:15? We would say "quarter 12", so I guess the English version is "quarter of 12".

The English terms would be:

11:15 -> quarter after 11, quarter past 11 (both pretty rare, tbh)

11:30 -> half past 11 (this is the only form that is moderately common)

11:45 -> quarter of 12, quarter before 12 (also pretty rare)

This is not great advice - the only way I have heard it in English would be "quarter past 11" to mean 11:15. Most people would just say "eleven fifteen".
> quarter of

Still can't beat stuff like "bi-weekly" which can mean "every two weeks" or "twice a week" or probably some other thing as well.

As is often the case, Randall Munroe has already delivered: https://xkcd.com/1602/. Perhaps the joke in this context would be if it said "bi-weekly".

"You should come to our Linguistics Club's bi-weekly meeting. Membership is open to anyone who can figure out how often we meet." (I mean, you have a 50-50 shot. I wonder if there's any personality insights one could learn from such a selection.)

Fortunately, fortnightly exists :)
yeah. for years, there's "biennial" (every 2 years) vs "biannual" (twice in 1 year).

no such luck w/ months or weeks.

also your username is almost as salient to the topic as mine! ;)

Tok Pisin, a.k.a. New Guinea Pidgin, has exactly two prepositions: bilong, which means "of" or "from" in a possessive or attributive sense; and long, which means everything else.
I have to admit that I was a bit surprised when my ex-wife listed off Spanish prepositions to discover that it excludes a lot of words I would have thought were prepositions but Spanish considers adverbs and only become prepositional when used in conjunction with one of the enumerated prepositions, usually (always?) de.