[Aurornis]

I volunteer as a mentor in a group where most mentees are recent college grads or early 20s juniors. ADHD is a perennial topic of discussion because most of them (no exaggeration) have either received a diagnosis or have self-diagnosed as ADHD.

One very common struggle I see is when they take internet advice that tells them it’s okay to offload their own struggles on to other people. Unfortunately this blog gives similar advice:

> Focus on managing how your limitations affect others rather than trying to eliminate those limitations. This means: > Being explicitly upfront about your administrative weaknesses early in relationships > Giving trusted contacts alternative ways to reach you when truly urgent > Building a reputation for being aware of your limitations rather than in denial about them

This commonly translates to them adopting ADHD as part of their public persona within the company, which they believe will grant them some degree of protection from consequences.

From what I’ve observed: More often than not this provides a false sense of security. They don’t intend for it to become a free pass, but after “coming out” as ADHD they get the wrong impression that the pressure is now off.

I think they intend to continue working on becoming better at managing their struggles, but it’s really easy to let the opposite happen: Once they think their diagnosis can be used as an excuse, they relax and let their behavior slip even further.

So be careful about getting the wrong idea from this line of thinking. It is good to acknowledge your difficulties and do things like ask other people to follow up if you don’t reply in a timely manner. It is important that you own up when you’ve dropped the ball. However, none of these things should be interpreted as a free pass or a loophole that shields you from consequences. That line of thinking, in my experience, is where people get themselves in trouble.

[bippihippi1]

I think it's valid to still hold people to a certain standard, but the standard is adjusted to match your disability while focusing on executing the core job functions.

* Don't you think we would be on time if we could? * It's not a matter of trying harder.

Yes we still have to do our core job functions the same as anyone else, but it's not fair to measure us on a quality the disability affects.

We don't get to ask a partially blind person to just look harder. We give them accommodations that let them do their job without relying on seeing.

It's called accommodation, not shielding from consequences.

I get to be late because I am not able to be always punctual. So my job has to accommodate me to help me do my job without relying on being on time. Just because I can sometimes try hard and be on time doesn't mean it's not a disability.

[yardstick]

Depending on the job, being punctual can be critical to keeping customers happy.

If I’ve got a major customer complaining about a critical issue and has scheduled a call with various stakeholders (including us) to discuss/resolve it, then we can’t miss that call. Nor can we reschedule without extremely good cause.

[bippihippi1]

If the disability affects a core job role then there are no reasonable accommodations. A blind person can't be a fire lookout, but they can be a host/greeter even though most customers would like to be acknowledged when they enter. the workplace just needs to make some changes to help the person.

also I'm not sure if 'customer wants the person not to do something' is undue hardship. If the employer says my customer wants to work with someone who can see my face when I talk, does that mean that employer doesn't need to accommodate blind people?

Like maybe the accommodation in your example could be to have another person on the team join meetings with you to provide a few minutes of coverage if you're late. If the job role really needs only one person to be exactly punctual all the time (does it really though?) then the eeoc advises to place the person in a different role with similar functions that aren't affected by the disability. read the guidance at eeoc.gov

Most of the time there are reasonable accommodations. It varies by person and the accommodations are specific to the role and person.

My point is that asking someone to just try harder is not the answer, and kind of ablist as it denies the reality of disability. Especially when you frame it as an accusation of laziness or an excuse to slack off.

[throwup238]

Almost anyone can diagnose if a person is blind if they’re acting in good faith but ADHD is far harder to pin down. At the moment the layman standard seems to be “can you convince a doctor/nurse practitioner to prescribe you amphetamines?”

The ADA covers mental disabilities like ADHD so anyone who actually needs accommodations can receive them if they follow the proper channels and get a legitimate doctor specializing in ADHD to diagnose them. In a career spanning nearly two decades I’ve only ever met one other person who followed the proper ADA accommodation route with HR (as opposed to accommodations for blindness, deafness, or chronic pain which were legion).

Speaking for myself, even with a legit diagnosis it was little more than a cover and self justification for drug abuse (yay NP who prescribed both Vyvanse and Adderall).

[Ancapistani]

I asked for accommodations once. I was fired a week later. Never again.

That said, I’m extremely happy with where I work today. I’ve been here almost four years and am still going strong.

[bippihippi1]

how does you thinking some people fake disabilities and that you have a substance problem have anything to do with my comment on people framing accommodations as an excuse to slack off?

Are you suggesting that you think your diagnosis is invalid and that should be taken as a data point in our discussion?

I think the answer is for you to stop taking drugs, not that there aren't people woth ADHD who need accommodations to do their job well.

It's also not anyone else's job to diagnose you but your doctor.

[throwup238]

If they cant or wont get ADA accommodations officially through HR, I don’t care what their doctor says (I don’t have access to their real medical records for obvious privacy reasons). They might as well have a diagnosis from a food truck chef.

It’s not my place to tell anyone whether they actually have a disability, especially one as pernicious as ADHD, but it’s also not anyone’s job to accommodate slackers who doesn’t follow the proper ADA process.

Next time someone uses their ADHD as an excuse to slack off, go talk to HR about what accommodations they requested and whether or not they’re reasonable. Forcing coworkers to pick up the slack for an existing assignment isn’t reasonable - ADHD accommodations are taken care of at the management and planning levels, not during standups. Stuff like flexible work schedules and office environments that minimize distractions are reasonable, but it’s not a get out of jail free card for one’s duties.

[bippihippi1]

who are you talking about and how does that pertain to this discussion? The fact that someone could lie or not do procedure properly is not relevant to the people who do. It's kind of insulting to bring that up in a good faith discussion to imply that we're all fakers. If you'd like to reply to anything I said instead of calling people names I'd be happy to discuss.

[ok_dad]

Imagine telling a quadriplegic something like this, though. The neurodiverse, which ADHD is a part, are always being told we still need to measure up to the standards of the non-disabled in some form or another. It’s always about how we shouldn’t offload our struggles on others. There’s no wheelchair for us, almost no one cares if our workplaces aren’t accommodating.

[falcolas]

100% this. This often manifests as "It's not your fault but it is your responsibility." Which is a great thinking framework when it helps you accept what you have and do what you can do mitigate it.

But here's the kicker: our "what we can do" will never be enough to be neurotypical.

We'll need help, even when we're using all our coping mechanisms. And if we don't get that help, the outcome is simple: we're going to fail.

[exmadscientist]

In my experience, the line is drawn, brightly, in one place: does the "disabled" person genuinely try to work with others, or do they expect to be given a free pass because they played the disability card?

I have worked with some severely disabled people. (Probably more than you have, given one of my past jobs.) Most of them worked their ass off to make things work out and for that they have my eternal respect, my cooperation, and the benefit of the doubt.

I have also worked with some people who just throw their hands up and say "but I'm disabled" whenever they are asked to do anything they don't want to do. I do not respect those people.

[falcolas]

What kind of disabilities? Visible (missing or non-functional limbs) or invisible (chronic pain, adhd, depression) ones?

More specifically, how do you know whether they could or couldn't do the things you were asking them to do, especially if it was an invisible disability?

Doing it before isn't a good indicator.

Other people with the same disability doing it isn't a good indicator.

Not visibly trying isn't a good indicator.

Having a blowout (or not) isn't a good indicator.

Being too tired (or too wired) isn't a good indicator.

[lazide]

The issue here is at the end of the day, there is work to do, and results matter.

Everyone has finite shits to give.

If everything is going fine, other people will often be willing to pick up slack or adjust. If other people are exhausted, overworked, or have no more shits to give - they won’t. Or more precisely, at some point they can’t. Or suffer negative outcomes themselves.

Disabilities are called that because they make things harder, for the people who have them, and for those around them. Same with disorders.

[falcolas]

> they make things harder, ... for those around them

Agreed. I think the point I'm trying to make is simple, to abuse your examples here: Your not giving a shit is neither my fault nor my problem.

And to generalize it, "Your problem with my personal trait is neither my fault nor my problem." Be that trait a disability, skin color, sexuality, gender, or nationality.

Because unfortunately disabilities are just targeted as all those other ones when people want a scapegoat.

I might be getting a bit philosophical, but that's what this feels like it boils down to. Person A is vocal about their dislike of something about Person B.

[exmadscientist]

These were not coworker or peer relationships, so I don't think your list/agenda here is particularly relevant.

[Teever]

That's a bit hyperbolic though, don't you think?

It's pretty unreasonable to compare one relatively minor disability to an extreme physical one that inhibits basic things like brushing your teeth or going to the bathroom.

ADHD doesn't stop you from doing those basic things does it?

For many people with ADHD it doesn't make things impossible, just much more difficult.

I think the point that the person you're trying to make is that too many people with an ADHD diagnosis think that being public with that diagnosis gives them a free pass to not over come the difficulties they face.

[falcolas]

> ADHD doesn't stop you from doing those basic things does it?

Ironic that you picked those two - it absolutely does.

ADHD (and autism) have trouble forming habits - remembering to brush your teeth is something that's a real problem for most folks who have ADHD. Not to mention showering, deodorant, etc.

As for the bathroom, most ADHD people will hyperfocus to the point where they either don't notice they have to use the bathroom, sometimes for an entire work day at a time. Constipation and minor incontinence are not as uncommon as we wish.

> For many people with ADHD it doesn't make things impossible, just much more difficult.

Imagine you have a set of spoons with which to do work. For a NT, doing something like brushing your teeth is a habit, so it doesn't take a spoon. For a ND, the habit fails to form, so they have to exert mental energy to do it. Two spoons.

Keep this up for an entire day, and by the time you have to cook dinner, ND just don't eat because they've been out of spoons since mid-day. The NT cooks dinner and has a few spoons left over to work on their hobby.

Difficult might as well be impossible when you're out of energy. Or spoons.

EDIT: Wow. This blew up. I wouldn't mind chatting more about it.

[Teever]

I don't need to imagine because I too have ADHD.

While I'm not also a quadrapeligic I feel confident that ADHD in general and quadrapelgia are not comparable.

I acknowledge that there are varying levels of severity of ADHD but very few of the instances of ADHD are comparable to such a profound disability as quadrapelgia.

[ok_dad]

You don’t compare disabilities, none are worse or lesser than others, it’s simply a disability. Anyone, even those with disabilities, who try and argue one type is worse off than another type are simply being ableist by trying to minimize or marginalize that person’s struggles.

[Teever]

Really?

You don't think that there are objective and measurable differences in disabilities?

Let's take plegia for example -- all other things being equal which is worse being monoplegic, paraplegic, triplegic, or quadriplegic?

Not recognizing objective differences in quality of life associated with varying disabilities does a disservice to those people with extreme disabilities and minimizes and marginalizes their struggles.

[mewpmewp2]

Arguably the fact that someone is able to hyperfocus like that seems like an ability rather than a disability?

E.g. someone is able to focus on things that actually make a change while being in a messy room.

[dns_snek]

In my experience hyperfocus is a double-edged sword. It's a superpower if it just so happens to be directed at the task/problem that I know I should be focusing on, but it often sends me in directions that aren't in line with my conscious high-level goals.

It can be exhausting if I really need to (and want to) work on something, but my mind is constantly switching its focus onto something else. It's like being interrupted by a coworker every few minutes, except it's your own mind doing it and you can't make it stop.

[jjj123]

The disability is not being able to control your focus.

[jon_richards]

Funny you chose that example… https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17587293/

[Teever]

Now show me the statistics on quadrapeligics brushing their teeth.

[hluska]

You used very poor examples and that’s okay. You don’t have to be perfect - it’s totally acceptable to wade into a conversation, realize you really weren’t qualified and back out. You don’t have to resort to this level of aggressive debate.

[ok_dad]

> I think the point that the person you're trying to make is that too many people with an ADHD diagnosis think that being public with that diagnosis gives them a free pass to not over come the difficulties they face.

Yea, and my point was: imagine telling a quadriplegic they should just try harder to walk, or alternatively that they should try to keep it secret. It’s a stupid idea.

You’re clearly uninformed about this topic, and should research it better.

[hluska]

I’m sorry bud, but I really don’t think you understand the topic. The idea is that people with different types of disabilities deserve an appropriate level of accommodation. It’s not a race or any kind of rivalry, or even a competition.

It’s about being a decent human being who can think critically.

[tailspin2019]

> relatively minor disability

“Research shows that adults with ADHD are 5 times more likely to attempt suicide. 1 in 4 women with ADHD have made attempts on their life, while men are more likely to end their life. Accidental death is also common.”

http://www.berkshirehealthcare.nhs.uk/media/109514702/suicid...

[Teever]

Now show me the suicide statistics on people suffering from permanent paralysis of their limbs.

[falcolas]

Yeah, we tend to die earlier as well (65 on average, I recall reading). Turns out chronic stress from managing the disability is not great.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/child-development-ce...

[satisfice]

This is why I don’t want to be diagnosed. I only claim to have probable ADHD when I am trying to help other people who do or might do.

Without claiming any disability, I say what I’m good at and offer to do it. I am respected for what I contribute and forgiven for what I don’t.

I married someone who does planning, she married someone who makes money on his ideas. She runs my business, I talk to clients and teach my classes and (slowly) write books.

[TomK32]

> One very common struggle I see is when they take internet advice that tells them it’s okay to offload their own struggles on to other people. Unfortunately this blog gives similar advice:

Sorry, but this is necessary though. Russell Barkley (he has a great Youtube channel) suggests a strict regime for children with ADHD (even with medication) and even as adults will need to inform those closest to us because we work differently. I don't want a free pass, what I need is someone giving me tasks that I can break into smaller pieces and get a feedback loop going for those so I won't loose track or get distracted. Diagnosis is an important step, but it has to follow for most with medication and for all with psychosocial work which can have negative side-effects.