[ok_dad]

Imagine telling a quadriplegic something like this, though. The neurodiverse, which ADHD is a part, are always being told we still need to measure up to the standards of the non-disabled in some form or another. It’s always about how we shouldn’t offload our struggles on others. There’s no wheelchair for us, almost no one cares if our workplaces aren’t accommodating.

[falcolas]

100% this. This often manifests as "It's not your fault but it is your responsibility." Which is a great thinking framework when it helps you accept what you have and do what you can do mitigate it.

But here's the kicker: our "what we can do" will never be enough to be neurotypical.

We'll need help, even when we're using all our coping mechanisms. And if we don't get that help, the outcome is simple: we're going to fail.

[exmadscientist]

In my experience, the line is drawn, brightly, in one place: does the "disabled" person genuinely try to work with others, or do they expect to be given a free pass because they played the disability card?

I have worked with some severely disabled people. (Probably more than you have, given one of my past jobs.) Most of them worked their ass off to make things work out and for that they have my eternal respect, my cooperation, and the benefit of the doubt.

I have also worked with some people who just throw their hands up and say "but I'm disabled" whenever they are asked to do anything they don't want to do. I do not respect those people.

[falcolas]

What kind of disabilities? Visible (missing or non-functional limbs) or invisible (chronic pain, adhd, depression) ones?

More specifically, how do you know whether they could or couldn't do the things you were asking them to do, especially if it was an invisible disability?

Doing it before isn't a good indicator.

Other people with the same disability doing it isn't a good indicator.

Not visibly trying isn't a good indicator.

Having a blowout (or not) isn't a good indicator.

Being too tired (or too wired) isn't a good indicator.

[lazide]

The issue here is at the end of the day, there is work to do, and results matter.

Everyone has finite shits to give.

If everything is going fine, other people will often be willing to pick up slack or adjust. If other people are exhausted, overworked, or have no more shits to give - they won’t. Or more precisely, at some point they can’t. Or suffer negative outcomes themselves.

Disabilities are called that because they make things harder, for the people who have them, and for those around them. Same with disorders.

[falcolas]

> they make things harder, ... for those around them

Agreed. I think the point I'm trying to make is simple, to abuse your examples here: Your not giving a shit is neither my fault nor my problem.

And to generalize it, "Your problem with my personal trait is neither my fault nor my problem." Be that trait a disability, skin color, sexuality, gender, or nationality.

Because unfortunately disabilities are just targeted as all those other ones when people want a scapegoat.

I might be getting a bit philosophical, but that's what this feels like it boils down to. Person A is vocal about their dislike of something about Person B.

[lazide]

If you say ‘should not be my problem’, then I’d agree since ‘Should’ usually means ‘I wish’.

The issue is that, like you note, it’s easy to ‘other’ people with disabilities and attack them, especially visible disabilities.

So then other people’s perceptions become a real problem for them, yes?

[exmadscientist]

These were not coworker or peer relationships, so I don't think your list/agenda here is particularly relevant.

[Teever]

That's a bit hyperbolic though, don't you think?

It's pretty unreasonable to compare one relatively minor disability to an extreme physical one that inhibits basic things like brushing your teeth or going to the bathroom.

ADHD doesn't stop you from doing those basic things does it?

For many people with ADHD it doesn't make things impossible, just much more difficult.

I think the point that the person you're trying to make is that too many people with an ADHD diagnosis think that being public with that diagnosis gives them a free pass to not over come the difficulties they face.

[falcolas]

> ADHD doesn't stop you from doing those basic things does it?

Ironic that you picked those two - it absolutely does.

ADHD (and autism) have trouble forming habits - remembering to brush your teeth is something that's a real problem for most folks who have ADHD. Not to mention showering, deodorant, etc.

As for the bathroom, most ADHD people will hyperfocus to the point where they either don't notice they have to use the bathroom, sometimes for an entire work day at a time. Constipation and minor incontinence are not as uncommon as we wish.

> For many people with ADHD it doesn't make things impossible, just much more difficult.

Imagine you have a set of spoons with which to do work. For a NT, doing something like brushing your teeth is a habit, so it doesn't take a spoon. For a ND, the habit fails to form, so they have to exert mental energy to do it. Two spoons.

Keep this up for an entire day, and by the time you have to cook dinner, ND just don't eat because they've been out of spoons since mid-day. The NT cooks dinner and has a few spoons left over to work on their hobby.

Difficult might as well be impossible when you're out of energy. Or spoons.

EDIT: Wow. This blew up. I wouldn't mind chatting more about it.

[Teever]

I don't need to imagine because I too have ADHD.

While I'm not also a quadrapeligic I feel confident that ADHD in general and quadrapelgia are not comparable.

I acknowledge that there are varying levels of severity of ADHD but very few of the instances of ADHD are comparable to such a profound disability as quadrapelgia.

[ok_dad]

You don’t compare disabilities, none are worse or lesser than others, it’s simply a disability. Anyone, even those with disabilities, who try and argue one type is worse off than another type are simply being ableist by trying to minimize or marginalize that person’s struggles.

[Teever]

Really?

You don't think that there are objective and measurable differences in disabilities?

Let's take plegia for example -- all other things being equal which is worse being monoplegic, paraplegic, triplegic, or quadriplegic?

Not recognizing objective differences in quality of life associated with varying disabilities does a disservice to those people with extreme disabilities and minimizes and marginalizes their struggles.

[ok_dad]

You’ve taken the opposite of what I said. Everyone’s disability is a struggle. Everyone’s life is a struggle. We help each other to navigate life and don’t compare.

Answer this: what’s the end goal of comparing disabilities? I’d argue it’s simply to minimize the “easier” ones. Every struggle is hard for the disabled, bar none. There is no logical reason to compare other than to minimize someone’s struggle, so just avoid doing that. Instead, try and figure out how you can help those around you who struggle, disabled or not.

[mewpmewp2]

Arguably the fact that someone is able to hyperfocus like that seems like an ability rather than a disability?

E.g. someone is able to focus on things that actually make a change while being in a messy room.

[dns_snek]

In my experience hyperfocus is a double-edged sword. It's a superpower if it just so happens to be directed at the task/problem that I know I should be focusing on, but it often sends me in directions that aren't in line with my conscious high-level goals.

It can be exhausting if I really need to (and want to) work on something, but my mind is constantly switching its focus onto something else. It's like being interrupted by a coworker every few minutes, except it's your own mind doing it and you can't make it stop.

[jjj123]

The disability is not being able to control your focus.

[jon_richards]

Funny you chose that example… https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17587293/

[Teever]

Now show me the statistics on quadrapeligics brushing their teeth.

[hluska]

You used very poor examples and that’s okay. You don’t have to be perfect - it’s totally acceptable to wade into a conversation, realize you really weren’t qualified and back out. You don’t have to resort to this level of aggressive debate.

[ok_dad]

> I think the point that the person you're trying to make is that too many people with an ADHD diagnosis think that being public with that diagnosis gives them a free pass to not over come the difficulties they face.

Yea, and my point was: imagine telling a quadriplegic they should just try harder to walk, or alternatively that they should try to keep it secret. It’s a stupid idea.

You’re clearly uninformed about this topic, and should research it better.

[hluska]

I’m sorry bud, but I really don’t think you understand the topic. The idea is that people with different types of disabilities deserve an appropriate level of accommodation. It’s not a race or any kind of rivalry, or even a competition.

It’s about being a decent human being who can think critically.

[tailspin2019]

> relatively minor disability

“Research shows that adults with ADHD are 5 times more likely to attempt suicide. 1 in 4 women with ADHD have made attempts on their life, while men are more likely to end their life. Accidental death is also common.”

http://www.berkshirehealthcare.nhs.uk/media/109514702/suicid...

[Teever]

Now show me the suicide statistics on people suffering from permanent paralysis of their limbs.

[falcolas]

Yeah, we tend to die earlier as well (65 on average, I recall reading). Turns out chronic stress from managing the disability is not great.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/child-development-ce...