[netdevnet]

Ok, so Harvest Moon and similar farm game are not games. Games about crafting are not games. The Sims are not games. I could go on but I think you already realise that your definition is not valid. Btw, I am not disagreeing with the claim that Jeremy's games are video games

[YurgenJurgensen]

If all your Sims die, is that not a failure? Harvest Moon has Steam achievements. (And a ‘best ending’ category on speedrun.com.) You could go on, but if those are the best you could think of, I don’t think it would be very productive.

[netdevnet]

In the Sims, mortality only applies to adults not toddlers and below, so only a portion of them can die.

How is a Steam achievement a score? A score is a scalar value not a Boolean one. And arguably it is not part of the game but part of Steam. You won't get Steam achievements of any game if you get it from another store. But using the Store achievement definition, Jeremy's games also qualify because they have Steam achievements (most games on Steam do have the achievements even those that fall outside of your definition of game).

[YurgenJurgensen]

How is toddler immortality relevant? A failure state exists. If toddler-only households are viable, that’s just a design oversight, which is an unrelated issue.

I never said that steam achievements were a score. Please try to read my posts. I thought it would be obvious that they represent a success state. I also note that you ignored the fact that Harvest Moon literally has an ending.

Also, I don’t know why Jeremy’s games qualifying is relevant. I never said they don’t.

[netdevnet]

I am not reading your mind just reading what you write. So what is and is not obvious is something solely concerning you.

If Steam Achievement is not a score, is Harvest Moon not a game then? Same thing about crafting and building games.

And having an ending is not synonymous with a success state or a failure state. I think it's clear that your definition is not a valid one as many games don't fit it

[_aavaa_]

Achievements are baubles and trinkets. They are neither necessary nor sufficient for something to be a game.

And I don’t know if you’re aware, but a vast amount of Sims players use the game to build and decorate houses and then play out stories in them. The Sims dying is not. A lose condition, but the final page of their story.

[YurgenJurgensen]

Why not? You are aware that many ticket-redemption games reward the player with literal baubles and trinkets, right?

Just because many people choose not to engage with the mechanics doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

[_aavaa_]

I never said they don’t exist, I said they are neither necessary nor sufficient for something to be a game.

[YurgenJurgensen]

Don’t dodge the question: Why not?

[_aavaa_]

I’m not dogging the question, it’s trivially answerable: many games don’t have achievement and are games nonetheless

Further, if you remove the achievements from games they continue being games. GTA without achievements is still a game. Remove the entire XBox and PS trophies system and all their games still remain games.

[snapcaster]

You're right, the Sims is a toy not a game. You can create games with toys but they are different