[comfortabledoug]

All these weird comments about alcohol abstinence...must be a religious fundamentalist, must be an ex-alcoholic, etc. I have a drink maybe 5-10 times per year, and I'm not actively trying to abstain. It tastes gross, and I'm not drawn to it. Why is it so hard for some people to understand that alcohol isn't appealing to everyone?

[foobiekr]

A lot of people confuse the secondary effects of alcohol (basically, mostly, social permission) with the primary effects. Most developed countries have purged almost all ritual from their cultures, which means that there aren't really occasions for people to experiment with their behavior - and it provides air cover for engaging in riskier behaviors - and so alcohol provides the outlet for them.

Alcohol is one of the most boring psychoactive experiences there is, it's the safest, the most predictable and the most repeatable. There's nothing challenging about it - happy drunks are going to be happy drunks, angry/emotional drunks are going to be angry/emotional drunks, people who use the context of alcohol to excuse behaviors that they feel they would otherwise be judged for (promiscuity, "I love you guys! no I really do!", etc. etc.) are doing just that. The only drug with more predictability than alcohol is caffeine, with the common opiates being next in line for being absolutely predictable - do X get Y.

Alcohol is boring. Even pot or tobacco are more interesting, but they lack the social context that provides behavioral permissibility which is really what drives the ritual-lite use - going drinking on the weekend.

[lostemptations5]

Alcohol is one of the most STANDARDIZED substances on the planet. 5% at 500 mil is always going to be the same amount of alcohol. Of course it's going to be predictable and socially acceptable. Try doing any other drug and you have no clue what you're getting, even if you get it from the the same source time and time again.

The predictability is a FEATURE. And btw, it's not boring at all.

You are conflating boring with predictable.

[red-iron-pine]

aye. the only times I've eaten pot brownies they were overly strong and not fun. same for psychodelics -- hit wayyyy harder than I'd ever think, and while it was quite a ride, I'm not game to try that again without knowing the dose.

meanwhile 2-3 beers with friends I haven't seen in a while is a good time, good convo, and we can chill out and sip water for 30 min to make sure we're safe to drive. like, I'm looking to have a pint with the lads and have nice conversation, not undergo ego death.

[bal00ns]

Weed in the US is starting to get this way as well. It’s amazing the amount of actually useful drug information you can get from products sold at weed shops these days. Meanwhile you don’t even get nutritional facts or ingredients with beer. I wish I liked either drug but I should be happy I don’t.

[sn9]

Safe compared to meth maybe but not compared to caffeine.

Setting aside alcohol addiction, the costs of alcohol abuse to your health (e.g., brain damage, liver disease, etc.), and the risk of killing yourself by drinking too much in a sitting, there's also the way it drastically increases the risk of drunk driving and domestic violence.

I'm not saying we should ban it or anything, but we should not be underplaying the very real risks and costs associated with it.

[slt2021]

the counter argument I hear is that few extra years of life you get by being 100% sober are not worth it.

Think of alcohol as ancient painkiller/antidepressant that helped people to get through the challenges of their lifes and make it through the life without walking out of the window

[sn9]

People who have that much of an issue with sobriety have other demons they need to address in therapy.

[taeric]

So, I could get behind a lot of the idea you are pushing here. But, I question whether you have evidence to back it up?

For one, to claim that most developed countries have purged ritual feels more like you are referring to some specific rituals. Or have amusing cuts on what you consider developed countries.

You also sort of undercut yourself by noting that alcohol hits people in different, if repeatable ways; but you seem to think that will not be true for other drugs? From my experience, I would expect the same for pot. Tobacco, I confess I never really saw it impact anyone. Outside of getting them addicted.

Simply stated, why do you think you would not see such variability of how other items impact people?

[coldtea]

>For one, to claim that most developed countries have purged ritual feels more like you are referring to some specific rituals.

They most likely mean all kinds of overt rituals societies used to have and some non-western societies still have.

What kind of rituals do we have that you have in mind that we still have, and that are not either very peripheral to everyday life or have not been diminishing in importance and attendance year by year?

[taeric]

Ignoring that there are non-western developed countries; many western societies still have church attendance, for one. Then there are the ball game rituals that have risen quite a bit. We still largely have the same holidays, as well.

Do we still do the same rituals as we did in the past? Of course not. Which is why I would largely agree. I suspect the evidence will be such that there are still more rituals than folks admit to. Graduation ceremonies. Weddings. Etc.

[notfed]

> Alcohol is...the safest [psychoactive drug]

Yeah, no. According to CDC data, more than 150,000 people die from excessive alcohol consumption per year [1], which is about how many people died of heroin overdoses in the past 20 years [2].

By and large, the labels "safe" or "dangerous" are subjective and highly cultural, at least when it comes to substances.

[1] https://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/facts-stats/index.html

[2] https://www.cdc.gov/overdose-prevention/about/heroin.html

[consteval]

> According to CDC data, more than 150,000 people die from excessive alcohol consumption per year [1], which is about how many people died of heroin overdoses in the past 20 years [2]

Easy, everyone drinks, almost nobody shoots up. There you go, explained.

[munksbeer]

Could you normalise that data? Deaths per user?

[mattgreenrocks]

I’m in my early 40s. My ability to metabolize alcohol took a steep nosedive a few years ago. I love a great marg/old fashioned/IPA, but I will feel depressed the next day no matter what. I’ve tried electrolyte supplementation, eating a lot, eating “right,” drinking a lot of water, etc.

My body has a hard time with it. So it’s rare that I seek it out. A small container of sake early in the evening might be my indulgence from now on.

[arichard123]

I had a similar thing until I stopped eating a certain brand of muesli. A different brand with seemingly the same ingredients was fine. I think it's something to do with processing of dried fruit. I believe there was some reaction between that and the alcohol I consumed later in the day. I only realised it was breakfast related on holiday and my breakfast habits changed. I found drinking to be consequence free as opposed to 1/2 a pint causing a certain headache the next afternoon. I experimented when I got home and completely solved my problem.

I was also in my early 40s when this happened for what that's worth.

[senectus1]

you might have FODMAP sensitivities.

[mactavish88]

I’m about to hit 40, and I’ve had this exact same experience. Even a single beer, shot of whiskey or glass of wine will leave me feeling depressed for at least a day afterwards.

For me it seems to correlate with having had COVID back in 2021, where prior to that I could still have 2-3 drinks and feel okay the next day. My suspicion/intuition is that it has something to do with a shift in my gut microbiome - from what I understand, alcohol can very easily disrupt one’s microbiome, and the state of my microbiome seems to have a significant influence on my mood.

I haven’t missed the alcohol though. It’s actually been a blessing for my general health and wellbeing.

[francisofascii]

I had a similar experience. For years I drank about 2 beers a night. Then in my early 40s, had a bout of "long covid" that lasted about 6 months. I have fully recovered, but can't drink like I used to. If I have one or two beers, I feel crappy and down the next day. Also the buzz isn't quite the same.

[grecy]

Precisely the same experience here. Since Covid even a single drink makes me feel bad enough to not want to again… and I always had bad hangovers. This is different

[mattgreenrocks]

Interesting. I never connected it to covid-19, and truly cannot remember if it hit me as hard the next day or not prior to the pandemic. (Also, obviously I was younger then, too.) The only symptom I can connect to covid-19 is persistent tinnitus, which is pretty common among long-haulers (though I don't count myself among them).

However, I've also heard mention of people drinking less in general which could suggest a link.

[nicholasjarnold]

There is some new evidence that changes occur at various stages in our lives, specifically one in the early-to-mid forties, that can affect things like alcohol metabolism[0][1]. I find this type of thing and the "epigenetic clock" research to be pretty fascinating to read about now that I'm approaching mid-life myself.

[0] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/drastic-molecular...

[1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s43587-024-00692-2

[Nevermark]

Never had a drink till junior year of high school, but immediately found I could drink incredible amounts of alcohol, 15-20+ cocktails, shots, beer, wine (mixing never caused me problems) and be virtually sober (obviously not clinically sober, and have no bio data) an hour or two after a long night.

Also kept a clear mind and mindful awareness throughout. Just euphoric & more social.

Then at 53, after some extreme stress, that completely changed. One drink slowly is usually fine. 2-3 drinks will upset my sleep. Any more and my next day suffers.

At 4-5 drinks my body feels like it has a slight fever over night. I feel overheated, whether I really am I don’t know. Just can’t process it efficiently.

More than that & I get socially sloppy. Not bad, but not welcome either.

But my very petite daughter in her mid 20’s inherited my relevant genes. Since high school she has to down two hard cocktails within ten minutes to start an evening of (more paced, but still steady) drinking with friends just to feel the effects, like I did most of my life.

She can out drink companions 2x her weight.

Also in common, neither of us is at alcohol addiction risk. Drinking is completely social/situational, no cravings or problems with abstention. We both enjoy the taste of alcohol. Scotch, neat, tastes like candy to me.

Drinking has always been at least as much about the gourmand exploration of flavors and varieties as the psychological effect.

I got my DNA analysis and one chromosome is 68% Caribbean pirate, 32% Viking, the other is split equally Russian/Irish.

Joking - but would be interested if relevant genes could be identified. I would happily sign up for gene or epigenetic therapy to resume my old life of refined epicureanism in excess.

Drinking mixed with lots of sparkling water, diet sodas, and a powder mixture of creatine, minerals, protein & fiber, before & after, reliably helps a bit.

Also, liver health remains excellent.

Genes!

[criddell]

My experience is similar. I can tolerate at most one cocktail, glass of wine, or beer (although I'll go malty over hoppy every time). One positive is that because of this limitation, I think I enjoy the drinks I do have a lot more.

A change that came along with this is some kind of sensitivity to sugar. I love candy and baked goods. A short stack of pancakes with maple syrup and berries is the best, but that kind of carb bomb can leave me feeling almost hungover.

[littlecranky67]

Same here. Quit alcohol when I turned 40, the side-effects the next day of even 1-2 beers were not making it worth the buzz during drinking. Sleep issues, less focus and concentration, weaker performance in the gym, anxiety the next day etc. etc. It became a no brainer to simply stop drinking. To those with better ability to metabolize alcohol, cheers to you.

[bityard]

For me, the type of drink makes a huge difference the older I get.

I used to like wine, but the older I got, the more I started noticing having a terrible hangover the next day, even if it wasn't enough to get actually drunk or even buzzed. Type/brand of wine didn't seem to matter. But whiskey or vodka mixed with soda, no problem.

[taeric]

How much of that is your ability to metabolize dropped, versus the strength of common drinks has sky rocketed? Especially mentioning IPAs. It is not uncommon to find them in the 9% range. I remember drinking a ton of Guinness back in the day. Highly amused to find that that would be considered a light beer today.

[mattgreenrocks]

Light, heavy, it doesn't really matter. I can get very little or no buzz from a 4% lager and still regret drinking the next day.

[taeric]

This somewhat intrigues me. An old fashioned and a 4% lager are very different, but you seem to be saying both will give you the same regret the next day?

Note that I largely resonate with the idea that aging reduces tolerance to alcohol. Love the Oatmeal's https://theoatmeal.com/comics/hungover. Hasn't quite hit me that hard, yet. Thankfully.

[Eumenes]

I'm a similar age and also a heavy drinker (15-25 drinks per week) but also run 40-50 miles per week + 5000-7000 feet of vert per week. My friends/family are astonished that I can crush 10 beers in an evening and run 15 miles the next morning w/o food. I suspect metabolism has alot to do with it.

[XorNot]

Post-30 I found any amount of alcohol I really noticed the next day and concluded it just wasn't worth it anymore.

[Insanity]

I feel like nowadays it is more socially acceptable to say you don’t drink than even just 10 years ago.

I can’t recall the last time I was asked “why” after telling someone I don’t drink. All in all, I was fortunate that during university a close friend of mine also didn’t drink. Being the “odd one out” seems harder than being the “odd pair out” lol.

edit: culture plays a role as well in how acceptable it is. I’m from a country that is heavy on alcohol usage though (Belgium).

[kenjackson]

In the US it’s far more acceptable. I don’t drink and while I’ve been offered, no one ever pushes back. And I’ve never had problems being the only one at parties who didn’t.

[bradlys]

This is YMMV. I still get a lot of “why don’t you drink?!! Come on, man!!” in the US. Especially in a city like NYC - you’re signing up to be a bit of a social outcast.

[siamese_puff]

I disassociate from allowing people like this into my life now.

[moralestapia]

Good for you.

However, in society at large, social influence (excuse the bit of circularity) is an extremely powerful force driving people's lifestyle.

[colechristensen]

>Why is it so hard for some people to understand that alcohol isn't appealing to everyone?

People often don't understand that not everyone experiences a thing the same way. That what it's like for you isn't the same as what it's like for me.

People think you experience alcoholic beverages exactly the same as they do and don't understand why you dislike them as a result.

[TeMPOraL]

> [I] must be a religious fundamentalist, must be an ex-alcoholic, etc.

Personally, no. Statistically, yes, at least enough for the difference to affect a study like this. That's the point of those comments.

[piker]

We're just hypothesizing why at the population level abstinence from alcohol might not actually cause cognitive decline as (somewhat) implied by the data. Don't take it personally.

[ziggyzecat]

You mean why abstinence isn't causing better cognitive performance, right, RIGHT?

Obviously the study result is BS. Because if the the same people, drinkers with higher than their abstinent peers cognitive scores, didn't drink, their performance would be THE SAME.

But it's impossible to find out. They should totally continue to study all that, tho. Maybe at some point in the future we can cut people open alive and look properly inside, fuck around & find out, and then close them up and send them back to work again.

[ziggyzecat]

> Obviously the study result is BS. Because if the the same people, drinkers with higher than their abstinent peers cognitive scores, didn't drink, their performance would be THE SAME.

That liquor consumption part of the study result.

[bell-cot]

> Why is it so hard...?

Stupid (cognitively easy) stereotypes, backed by "everybody's gotta drink!" machismo/insecurity/conformist culture, backed by "all the people I know" (who aren't silenced by stereotypes and peer pressure) experience, backed by decade after decade of massive advertising by the alcohol industry (and adjacent industries).

[bityard]

You are fortunate. There are many alcoholics who would trade anything to switch places with you. Probably a lot of the responses are from people who have seen how destructive alcohol can be when used in excess.

I grew up in a blue-collar rural area where alcoholism wasn't just common, it was flat-out normal. Anyone who could get away with nursing a beer or 12 the whole day long and not get fired, usually did. My dad drank a lot and it caused a ton of problems with his marriage (leading to divorce) but at least he wasn't abusive.

I am also somewhat lucky in that I never could acquire a taste for beer. Based on my family history and upbringing, I could have very easily slid into alcoholism otherwise. I'll never know for sure, but to keep even the possibility at bay, I have two hard rules: no drinking during the day and no drinking the night before work or having to be somewhere the next day.

[coldtea]

>Why is it so hard for some people to understand that alcohol isn't appealing to everyone?

Because it does appear to appeal to 90% of the population

[ziggyzecat]

I assume because technical people would think something like:

- there are tens of thousand drinks on the planet,

- all with their different nuances in how they alter mood and thinking patterns.

Not appealing just can't be true except if you 'score' low in novelty seeking/curiosity ... except if you were only exposed to bad drunks and pathetic alcoholics ...

Something like that. But it might also be because marketers see people like you as a challenge, a trophy to collect, and the non-marketing types just want to 'seduce' you.

They do the same to babies and minors all the time. "Say this or that, do this or that." And BAM, some brain cells practically useless forever.

[foobiekr]

"all with their different nuances in how they alter mood and thinking patterns"

This is honestly not true unless you are including absinthe. Ethanol is the only active ingredient and it has one of the most well understood dose-response curves and one of the most heavily studied effects. The rest is all in your head.

There just isn't that much to the alcohol, it's very one note, moreso than any psychedelic, moreso than even smoking (where dose control significantly varies the effects) or even cannabis which is also relatively one note.

[ziggyzecat]

> This is honestly not true unless

I am quite certain that if you talked to a variety of people who like to drink, they will tell you that tequila hits different than a single barrel rye whiskey or champagne, for example. And it's more than just the amount of sugar. There are amounts of hints of various aromas in different liquor and these small differences do quite a bit in the brain, which you did propose yourself when you said

> The rest is all in your head.

Brains are incredible. The "sensitivity and specificity" of receptors goes way beyond what we understand for now, both hardware and software-wise, and that is true on the level of synapses as well as within any metabolism anywhere in their chains in the body and in how they work together to achieve their own objectives, as well as the ones they share.

Take any approach within the range of broken - buggy - normal - amplified and apply it to any sphere of single and networked mechanism. Wear and tear and age change all this even further and never forget that we are still evolving, over very long time spans in very small changes.

It's an insane ride from bio-chemistry to character in different states of mind and body/brain and that ride morphs quite a bit based on anything we consume via active and passive channels.

And that's just part of the story as it evolves in my head.

[nomdep]

There is a genetic component on how you react to alcohol: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_flush_reaction

[sieste]

Hops in beer have a mildly sedative effect. Sugar, caffeine, taurin in mix drinks cause more alertness and euphoria. There really is more to drinks than just the amount of ethanol.

[theclansman]

I've always found weird how people draw conclusions from small correlations, specially when other studies show the opposite result. They call it hypothesis, but weirdly enough these conclusions often coincide with their world view. Look at that, now I'm the one drawing conclusions, must be human nature to try to make sense of things. But what I've found is that often reality is counter intuitive, and that's more fun.