[goodside]

I used to be an advocate of the standing desk. I bought an adjustable-height Fredrik workstation from Ikea, tried multiple heights to find the most comfortable, and stuck with it for six months.

It didn't work.

Even after months of practice, I found it harder to concentrate while standing and doing it any longer than a few hours would invariably result in back pain. I found myself turning to "sitting tasks" like movies and books frequently just to get a break, and it greatly impaired my productivity. It wasn't easy to admit that I had put such a huge amount of effort into a failed experiment, but that's what it was. I'm writing not to discourage people who might benefit from a standing desk from trying it, but to give people who have nagging doubts about their decision a chance to back out without feeling like an idiot. Eliezer Yudkowsky said once, "'Oops!' is the sound rationalists make when they level up."

For what it's worth, I'm 25, male, 6'0", and 130 lbs. I don't exercise regularly, but I live in an urban area in a third-story walk-up, and I don't drive. If you're thinking I gave up because I'm abnormally out of shape, I'm not.

[jcampbell1]

6'0" and 130 lbs is quite underweight. You have very little muscle and I am not surprised by the back pain. You need to gain about 25 pounds of muscle and then consider a standing desk. You need to hit the weights and fridge really hard for about 6-18 months.

[goodside]

There are mountains of evidence that BMI correlates positively with the incidence of lower back pain. I have no history of LBP outside of the context of using a standing desk. Further, most of the purported benefit standing desks is to prolong lifespan, and there's even stronger evidence that low-BMI people live longer, so the suggestion that I should gain weight and sacrifice a clinically validated approach to living longer in favor of something as novel as a standing desk is just absurd.

[bokonist]

"and there's even stronger evidence that low-BMI people live longer,"

Not true. If you go by the raw numbers, your BMI of 17.6 puts you at the same death risk as someone who has a BMI around 30 (which is borderline obese): http://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S014067360960318...

Article: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0140673609...

Both higher than typical BMI and lower BMI are associated with higher mortality risk.

I don't think anyone knows which direction the causality goes ( and that is true for a lot of things, I'm think the direction of causality is unknown for a lot of these articles that say "standing is better" or "people who walk more live longer").

[rada]

Per your article, "below the range 22.5-25 kg/m2, BMI was associated inversely with overall mortality, mainly because of strong inverse associations with respiratory disease and lung cancer" (italics mine) i.e. if your BMI is low, average mortality is comparatively high, but only because of smokers. (Study recruitment year looks to be 1979 when there were a lot more smokers).

Moreover, your study recruited people at age 46 (mean) and followed them through their death. Meaning, a whole lot of people got older, got sick, subsequently lost weight and died. Unless proper adjustments were made, the low BMI-high mortality connection is rather unproven.

For a similar example, see http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.3322/canjclin.55.5.268...:

The main concern regarding the newer CDC analysis is that it did not adequately account for weight loss from serious illnesses such as cancer and heart disease. Including such individuals in the analysis created the false appearance that being overweight protected against death during the follow up.

and

The newest CDC analysis also failed to account adequately for the effect of smoking on weight. Smokers tend to be a little lighter than nonsmokers, although the negative health impact of smoking far outweighs that of a few extra pounds. As a result, the Flegal study underestimated the risks from obesity and overestimated the risks of leanness.

Regardless, I don't think we are on different pages since you acknowledged that no one really knows which direction the causality goes.

[th5]

I'm 5'9" 150#. I was diagnosed with scholiosis in jr. high, had lower back pain when sitting all through hs and college (back when i was 130#). I too tried the standing desk and it didn't help.

Here's what helped -- about 3 years ago I got into squats and dead-lifting. I got them up to 1.5x and 2x body weight, respectively. I didn't gain a whole lot of weight, but my core strength increased tremendously.

Maintaining good posture requires some (~10-30%) flexion of the core/abdominals at all times while sitting. Now, after learning proper form of squats and deadlifts, my body goes into proper sitting form without even thinking.

Back pain is completely gone. squats and dlifts -- highly recommended!

tldr-its not about weight, its about strength

[dereg]

This cannot be emphasized enough.

To anyone reading, you don't have to do more than the big three — squats, dead lift and bench press — to build a strong core and ameliorate most RSI issues.

Regular cardio fitness and 10-minute work breaks are good, but can only take you so far. Being stationed at a computer for extended periods of time requires having a proper muscular frame to support your bones.

[dredmorbius]

Chins, man, chins.

Why do lats get no love?

[billswift]

Because we rarely ask our muscles to work that way. Deadlifts, especially, strengthen our bodies against the most commonly encountered stresses. While bench presses are commonly recommended, I think overhead presses and bent rows are more helpful at preventing injuries.

[nick_urban]

BMI is a misleading indicator in this case. It doesn't differentiate by body composition at all (e.g. fat vs muscle).

I doubt very much that adding muscle to an underweight person would decrease that person's life expectancy. Probably it would improve it (the health benefits of exercise are well known). Either way, it would improve his quality of life.

[olliesaunders]

I don’t think this is true. Pretty much the only proven thing you can do if you want to live longer is calorie restriction. Supposedly this is because the fewer calories you consume the less exposure your body has to free radicals that are important in aging. The corollary of this is that building muscle, which requires eating a lot, is inferior to being a skinny rake for longevity alone. Then, if you eat barely anything, you would be better with only a small amount of exercise.

And, just to rule out any suspicion of bias, know that I have a job where I’m constantly lifting weight, I have my own strength exercise regime outside work, I drink protein shakes, and I eat quite a lot for my frame.

[bokonist]

I wonder if calorie restriction works because it slows down your metabolism, and thus slows down cell division, and effectively makes it so you are just living more slowly/aging more slowly than other people. However, I would think you would also have less energy, and get less done. So effectively you would live longer as the calendar turns but you would not live any longer in terms of life experienced.

(this is all just pure speculation, I have never looked into any of the science regarding calorie restriction)

[thucydides]

"The corollary of this is that building muscle, which requires eating a lot, is inferior to being a skinny rake for longevity alone."

Not true. Stronger people are less likely to die. Strength reduces your risk of death from all causes - and cancer in particular.

"[The inverse relationship between] muscular strength and death from all causes and cancer persisted after further adjustment for cardiorespiratory fitness; however, the association between muscular strength and death from cardiovascular disease was attenuated after further adjustment for cardiorespiratory fitness."

Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2453303/

[Ergomane]

> Pretty much the only proven thing you can do if you want to live longer is calorie restriction.

This has not been proven for humans AFAIK.

[reedlaw]

I doubt that eating less and getting less exercise will really lead to longer life. It would be hard to measure such a thing, but my guess is that with less exercise and eating there would be a corresponding decline in happiness which alone could knock years off a person's life.

[grannyg00se]

Calorie restriction is actually one of the fiew proven longevity tricks. In mice anyway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calorie_restriction

But I don't subscribe to the "live long an weak" mentality. I believe that your body is healthier and more capable when well nourished and physically strong. I'm 6'2" 190lbs and continually trying to gain muscle mass.

[continuations]

> I doubt that eating less and getting less exercise will really lead to longer life.

It does. Calorie Restriction is pretty much the only proven way to extend life and slow down the aging process.

[dredmorbius]

No.

The one proven thing you can do to live longer is to not die.

Risk prevention / avoidance is a large part of this, but that includes a lot other than bodyweight. Seat belts, condoms, not smoking, little or no alcohol/drugs, pollution.

Several long term athlete studies show longevity, and quality of life benefits, to exercise (Stanford runners study, Scandinavian olympian study). And the specific mechanism of calorie restriction, telomere repair, is shown in both cardio and strength training.

[sliverstorm]

As a 6'2" individual who tips the scales just shy of 145lbs on a good day, I am not you, but I'd strongly suggest you consider gaining some weight. If you are anything like myself, you (like myself) are so skinny as to be a health problem.

Among other things, gaining good weight (I used to fluctuate between 135-140) has clarified my mind, improved the strength of my heart, and a small host of other nice little upsides. I'm not even to my target weight yet, either.

Remember, just because someone with a BMI of 23 has better health prospects than a BMI of 27, doesn't mean a BMI of 3 is even better.

[zacharycohn]

It has nothing to do with BMI - which is a terrible system of measurement by the way. I'm highly athletic and in great shape, and my BMI is 25. Which puts me right at the bottom of "overweight."

6' and 130 is very underweight - you don't have to look like a body builder, but your body does need some muscle to function properly. And 130 isn't enough.

[dereg]

Why are you getting so defensive? I'm 6'1" and 150 pounds and I am way too skinny for my own good. These people here aren't hating on you, they're telling you the truth — you would benefit from gaining some muscle. Muscles support your skeleton, that shouldn't be a suprise. 50 pushups won't help you when you've got back pain. Eat a burger and do some deadlifts.

[continuations]

6'1" and 150 lbs is not anywhere close to "way too skinny". It's well within the normal range of BMI. Sure you don't look like Schwarzenegger. But that's very different from being way too skinny.

[dereg]

I disagree. Here's why. I used to work out quite a bit and, with the help of P90X, I got up to 170-175 pounds of lean weight. I maintained it for a while, but adverse life events, a huge workload, and a crappy diet made me lost most of the weight (and a lot of the muscle mass) that I put on before.

Since my weight tumbled to 145 lbs, I noticed a huge difference in my physical well being, especially in sedentary positions. My posture worsened, my back constantly ached, and I started to suffer from RSI. I've been using the same chair all the while, a Herman Miller Mirra.

So, from my experience, weight and muscle mass was a primary determinant of my sedentary well being. Believe me, I was putting a lot less stress on my spine when I was doing 48 pullups in a workout, vs 8 now. I'm slowly working my way back up, and the back pain from sitting has lessened.

[AJ007]

I don't know all of the personal details here -- but, if your muscles are underdeveloped your at risk for RSI issues. I'm taking a guess, at that height and weight your muscles are underdeveloped.

Since I switched to very basic body weight strength training nearly 2 years ago, problems I thought I would have until I died vanished. Nothing I ate or drank, no amount of aerobic exercises did anything to address those issues.

You should not be developing back pain from standing. Everything else should be getting sore. Back pain, that I've seen, generally occurs from people who either slouch forward at work, have major stress issues, or have some type of actual injury.

[goodside]

I can do 50 push-ups. I'm not an athlete but I'm in shape enough to be healthy. I'm by no means "underdeveloped". I appreciate your concern -- thanks.

[Empact]

Great, but how much can you squat or deadlift relative to your bodyweight? Your posterior chain, from your mid-back down to your ankles, is far more important to your long-term stability and comfort.

It's key to your complaint of discomfort standing up, and it's key to avoiding back or knee problems long-term.

[antihero]

Pushups do use core strength to maintain your posture, but are mostly about upper body. How much can you squat or deadlift?

[Evgeny]

I have read this article just yesterday: http://healthcorrelator.blogspot.com.au/2012/06/lowest-morta...

This is basically a reference point to support the opinion that was stated here: BMI is not the only thing that matters.

Take a look at the two numbers circled in red. The one on the left is the lowest-mortality BMI not adjusting for fat mass or fat-free mass: a reasonably high 27.4. The one on the right is the lowest-mortality BMI adjusting for fat mass and fat-free mass: a much lower 21.6.

I know this may sound confusing, but due to possible statistical distortions this does not mean that you should try to bring your BMI to 21.6 if you want to reduce your risk of dying. What this means is that fat mass and fat-free mass matter.

[jcampbell1]

To put this in perspective, 6'0 and 130 is a BMI of 17.6 which is off the charts. He is well below the ideal lean BMI of 21.6.

[xiaoma]

Hmm... maybe you're used to an environment with a lot of overweight people.

Anything under 18.5 is considered "underweight", just as anything over 25 is considered "overweight". 17.6 is only off by .9 points. He's less off the charts than someone 6'0 and 195lbs (BMI of 26.4)

[antihero]

BMI is garbage because it doesn't take into account muscle, which is heavier than fat. I'd be willing to bet someone with a higher BMI that is muscular is going to be healthier than a lanky person who is actually pretty unfit.

[hwillis]

Seconded, as someone formerly 6' 130lb, and a frequent back pain sufferer (partially due to injury). I started doing weightlifting about a year ago, and deadlifts in particular made the pain virtually disappear as well as improving many other areas of my life. I found that it very quickly helped my back, even in a couple weeks.

[mibbitier]

Or he could just.... sit down and work.

Personally, I find working on a sofa with a laptop to be ideal.

[BobPalmer]

IMO (and for me at least), switching between sitting and standing is the key - I picked up a drafting chair from Staples just for that purpose. So now I do about 75%/25% standing/sitting, and switch positions pretty frequently.

[abossy]

Agreed. I do about 50%/50%. It's improved my posture tremendously.

[marknutter]

You need to do a combination of sitting and standing. I ran into the same problems you did when first trying out a standing desk for about a year. I went back to sitting for a year, and then finally invested in a motorized desk (geekdesk.com) to get the best of both worlds and I couldn't be happier now. When I'm sick of standing, I sit. When I can't stand sitting, I stand.

[fghh45sdfhr3]

While we're throwing personal anecdote around: Male, 30, 6'1'' and 170 lbs. Had lower back pain, switched to a standing desk and the pain disappeared in a few months, and now several years later, I still stand most of the day and can not imagine going back to sitting most or all day.

[sgaither]

You're obviously not overweight but you're pretty light for that height, so I wonder if someone with a lower center of gravity would suffer fewer back issues? What if you used a laptop that you could move from standing desk to couch from time to time? Like after every 40 minutes?

[goodside]

I tried sitting down periodically. It just reinforced how much more comfortable it was to sit than to stand.

I find it completely implausible that being thin would making extended standing harder. Flies in the face of everything I've ever read about back problems, which overwhelmingly afflict people with higher BMI. Also, I'm quite young, and have no history of back or muscle pains of any sort outside of what was brought on by the standing desk experiment.

[dredmorbius]

Go look up an anatomical diagram. A good anatomy book is your best bet, but this is a decent start: http://www.dcfirst.com/muscle_anatomy_posters.html

Your spine is a stack of disks. It's got no inherent tendency to stay upright, other than the forces imposed on it by your muscles (and fascia, but that's a passive stabilization system). In particular the spinal erectors, iliocostalis lumborum, spinalis, longissimus thoracis, levatores costarum/breves, and cervical muscles.

With low bodyweight, you've got low muscle mass, particularly if you're not doing much in the way of strength training. As you age, you're losing this at the rate of about 0.5 - 1% per year (past age 30 or so). Which is where strength training comes into play.

Muscle tissue and strength are developed in direct response to imposed demand. It's called the "specificity" or "SAID" (specific adaptation to imposed demand) principle.

Full-body strength training routines -- squats, deadlifts, lunges, press, bench, and rowing / chin-up movements -- will develop that muscle.

At 6'2", last time I weighed 130# was some time in middle school. By high school, as a swimmer and just doing bodyweight strength training, I was 185-195#. These days I'm at about 260, cut weight would be closer to 235-245# with 8-10% bodyfat. I'm not saying that this should be your goal, but am pointing out that there's a huge variance in individual fit body mass. Your weight might be appropriate for a long-distance marathoner (Geoffrey Muttai, among the best in the world, is about 125# at 6' in competitive shape, but that's absolutely shredded with <6% bodyfat).

Here's my suggestion: try strength training for 6-12 months. See if it changes your perceived fitness and comfort. Like it? Keep it up. Don't? You've gained experience points and it's cost you little else. I'm a fan of The New Rules of Lifting (which describes much of the science and health/fitness benefits in much greater depth) and Starting Strength (a simpler and very brutally effective lifting program) myself.

Oh, and when you get into your 40s like me, you may appreciate that muscle mass.

Just sayin'.

[2muchcoffeeman]

Why is it implausible? Standing still requires muscle. There is some minimum standard of fitness required to stand for a fairly long time.

Being thin or having a normal BMI doesn't mean you're fit. It's just a useful statistical measure to find out the general fitness of a population. Youth won't help you either.

[olliesaunders]

We’re only focusing on the BMI issue because that was revealed by the original comment. Goodside could have spikes placed on the ceiling that dug into his head only when standing. If this was the case we’d be barking up completely the wrong tree. I’m pretty sure he’s not that stupid but my point is, without being present to make an assessment we have absolutely no idea what could be going on. It’s like trying to fix your parent’s computer over the telephone with them operating it.

[zerostar07]

It's not implausible. I used to be skinny like you, everything from getting up in the morning to getting out of the shower (cold) was worse. Standing was harder. For me standing a few hours a day is not about back pain, but for better posture and more energy.

[woodchuck64]

Standing or sitting, I reduced upper and lower back pain with one of these: http://epicself.com/move/roll-it-out-upper-back/

[vikvik]

This is very good to know. I wonder if having a bar stool can help.

I used to work on a shop floor where you had to be on your feet all day with just a lunch break in between wherein you get to sit. The first few days where killer, but the second week onwards the body just gets used to standing and walking all day.

One part of my rotation was through QA where we had tall tables to work on. We were provided tall stools to sit, and we usually worked half standing half sitting.

[reedlaw]

I agree that standing all day is not much better than sitting all day. But for someone not ready to jump to a walking desk, alternating sitting and standing would be a step up at least. Also, sitting on an exercise ball for periods of time can be relieving to those who sit in the same chair all day.

[SkyMarshal]

Same. I've actually found that sitting on a Swedish exercise ball is better than a standing desk for me. It forces some active use of muscles and posture, but I don't get tired from it and have to take sit breaks like I do with a standing desk.

Fwiw, 5'11" 200lbs, avid cyclist, don't drive.

[recycleme]

A stand-up desk is not for everyone.

I've been doing it for close to a month and I'm enjoying it. One of the best benefits that I get from it is not feeling any afternoon drowsiness. I take sitting breaks when I feel like it. It feels good to have a choice between sitting and standing.

[jonhendry]

When I tried a standing desk, my feet were the main pain issue, even with shoes made for workers who stand a lot, and a cushioned mat.

I also found it harder to concentrate.