[mbesto]

> Usually it's because too much is hidden.

No. It's. Not.

You get crap inbound because the process is frictionless.

> I wanted more information, but I didn't want a phone call. I filled out the form asking for some high-level information on pricing, and that I didn't want a phone call.

Needless to say, the rep never responded to my inquiry.

But, put yourself in my situation: I don't want calls at random times of the day that are convenient to a salesman. I want to talk on the phone at a time that's convenient to ME, and only if I know the (ballpark) range of what you're selling costs. If a new shower costs $5k, and I won't be in a position to spend that for 18 months, I want to know that I should pick up the phone then, not now.

I feel you. I really do. I've been in this position before. But until you operate a business at scale and see what absolute utter crap comes through the door, only then will you really understand what's behind the scenes.

[ses1984]

It’s. Both.

Maybe if transparent pricing were posted, some people would choose not to submit, but it won’t stop all the crap from coming in.

[refulgentis]

They're right, at least a third is nonsense slop.

You're also right that some fraction wouldn't be contacting asking for information if the information was more readily available.

They're not shitting on customers and abdicating responsibility for making a better website. They're pointing out something important and unintuitive.

I don't know how to bridge a conversational gap like this because it really is something to experience. Another form of it is job applications. At least 1/3 is just random people.

To try to show some humility beyond "bro u ever done this???":

- My mentally disabled sister, tested at 4th grade level at her peak, and would often spend days applying for random jobs that sounded cool. I'm not talking like "oh Dairy Queen cashier.", I mean, director/CXO etc.

- At my first company, we'd get a contact every 3-6 months, with demo-like questions from the same person. We were small enough that we couldn't chase every lead, made enough money we didn't have to, and I didn't like encouraging active salesmanship. After a couple years, someone followed up asking what his business was like. It was an 11 year old using a point of sale app to get drink orders from his friends from the family pool.

[EionRobb]

Ooh we had a one of those!

They organised an in-person demo at our office after they filled in the online forms for their "multi-million dollar drinks distribution company", right in our target zone of customer type and size. So we had a few salespeople present to give a swish demo and hopefully win them over.

Turned out to be a 15 year old doing door to door sales of his home made ginger beer. He told us our (half the price of the nearest competitor) product was too expensive for what it was and that we would never succeed in business like he would.

Kudos to our sales guys though: After the initial shock and eye rolling, they treated them like the large business they claimed to be and just used the time to practice their demo/sales techniques.

[gravescale]

> He told us our product was too expensive for what it was and that we would never succeed in business like he would.

To be fair, when you're a 15 year old selling homemade drink, everything seems expensive, because you have basically zero costs other than your own time and a sack of sugar and it's difficult to conceive how much money roars around in business with any non-family employee.

I've been working 20-ish years and I still get sticker shock over even quite minor things even though some sap pays me three figures, more than my childhood annual income maybe, a day.

Perhaps it's too much free (as in beer) software and over exposure to ridiculously cheap-through-insane-scale consumer goods - a whole mid-grade phone for the same cost as a meal for two, say. But I think there's also a huge disconnect with how we tell children the world of "good, capitalist work", in which they'll probably spend the rest of their lives, works, and how it really works. About all you really get is Peppa Pig setting up a lemonade stand and learning a lesson on the value of hard work, say, and a jagged line graph briefly mentioned on the news.

The school system, at least for me, was extremely light on that kind of thing, even when you include economics (which I didn't take). In fact even in the media, other then specifically financial things like the FT, how the whole world actual or books in the subject specifically, how everything actually functions at any practical level is just...never really mentioned. Kids might know every kind of dinosaur, the function of the bits on the steam engine, the names of the sails on a ship-of-the-line, but it's almost like everyone has agreed we just don't need to talk about daily reality. It's like a huge "draw the rest of the owl" meme.

[Aeolun]

Because for most kids the rest of the daily reality will never matter? The only thing relevant to them is how much money appears on their bank account every month.

Of course, it’s not really conceivable they’ll ever need to know the names of the sails of a ship if the line either.

[djoldman]

This "crap" coming through the door must be at least partially a result of price tiering and offering.

You either:

1. Pay sales people to construct custom slices of services with custom prices and force them and your customers to hash it out via communication.

or

2. Commit to choose-your-own-adventure offerings where customers just check boxes and see pricing change in real time.

Option 1 retains negotiation advantage and makes more money for the company even though they pay sales people.

Option 2 removes sales people and gives up negotiation advantage, which customers would love.

Saying that, in the option 1 scenario, "crap" comes through the door because the process is frictionless is like saying a person died of suffocation instead of that they were strangled in a domestic dispute: there's a lot more going on.

[refulgentis]

They're right, at least a third is nonsense slop.

You're right that some fraction of people reaching out for into wouldn't be reaching out for info if the info was readily available.

This is very true, to the point its reflexively and obviously true.

It does not falsify the lived experience you'll have at a business with contact forms, be it for job applications, or product inquiries.

> Saying "crap" comes through the door because the process is frictionless is like saying a person died of suffocation instead of that they were strangled in a domestic dispute

This has to win some sort of prize for analogies.

Here's mine:

An open contact form on the internet is like leaving your front door wide open in a busy city. Sure, some people might wander in because they couldn't find your house number, but you'll also get lost tourists asking for directions, door-to-door salespeople hawking their wares, and the occasional raccoon looking for a snack. No amount of information on your facade will prevent the guy who thinks your living room is a public restroom from stumbling in.

[Aeolun]

Most of those are so obvious you could throw them out with a simple pattern matching scheme. Getting a lot of crap doesn’t really matter if you can filter it all with 5m of work per day.

I need less than a glance at the text on my contact form when I’ve seen the email address.

[HeyLaughingBoy]

Beware the false negative. I'd probably fall victim to a lot of HN users' filters because I have a @yahoo.com email. However, I've had it since 1998 and I'm not likely to give it up any time soon.

[latentsea]

> occasional raccoon looking for a snack

I'm sure he'd like the enterprise snack plan.

[djoldman]

> An open contact form on the internet is like leaving your front door wide open in a busy city. Sure, some people might wander in because they couldn't find your house number, but you'll also get lost tourists asking for directions, door-to-door salespeople hawking their wares, and the occasional raccoon looking for a snack. No amount of information on your facade will prevent the guy who thinks your living room is a public restroom from stumbling in.

Agreed. I guess the point is that that is obvious to anyone who has ever run a website, and therefore facile.

It neatly skips over or ignores the fact that you don't have to have any crap come through the door at all: just put multiple signup buttons that require payment.

Coming at this another way: salespeople should be smiling and celebrating when crap comes through the door because without negotiated "enterprise" plans, the companies would probably make less money and have less need for salespeople.

Instead of crap, maybe it's salesperson gold?

[refulgentis]

A solution to people who want to talk to someone before they buy is to add multiple layers of buttons that make them buy first?

The salespeople should be celebrating every incoming contact because having contacts at all means you get sales?

These are narrowly true, I assume first isn't something you're seriously advocating for, and second is a form of "starving kids in africa"/"i used to walkup hill to school both ways" fallacy.

FWIW, I don't get the impression anyone is arguing for "how do we ensure every contact we invest in is viable?" or "We need to figure out how to ensure salespeople never have negative emotions about an incoming contact's quality".

[threetonesun]

If the cost of dealing with the crap is high enough, you put up a friction filter. Think about healthcare, a doctor's time is incredibly important, so you've got admins and nurses in front of them.

Internet aside, it seems like those filter roles are much less likely to exist these days. Either you get someone who has no idea what's worth filtering, or you have to try to communicate with the expert directly and burn their time figuring out who's worth following up with.

[TeMPOraL]

> Think about healthcare, a doctor's time is incredibly important, so you've got admins and nurses in front of them.

Incredibly important for filling in billing paperwork, because practicing medicine is an increasingly small fraction of a doctor's time. This doesn't necessarily counter your point, but it's interesting how job allocation makes little sense and most expensively trained people are used to do the most menial jobs, because it's somehow cheaper than keeping extra headcount of lower-paid clerical workers.

Same is the case in software industry. A lot software engineer's work involves dealing with bullshit that should be, and used to be, handled by a dedicated staff.

[Aeolun]

I still don’t know why my company requires me to fill out how much time I work on the projects they’ve assigned to me on the hours they specified. Every day…

[mbesto]

> Think about healthcare, a doctor's time is incredibly important, so you've got admins and nurses in front of them.

lol, that's exactly what the grandparent author explained.

[malfist]

If SpaceX can put their costs online in a pricing calculator, your SaaS can too.

It's not my fault I'm a "low quality lead" because you didn't put any pricing on your SaaS page and your price point is way outside what I'm willing to pay.