As an Italian, if it manages to break into our market, it means that it's good stuff. Yes, we are still very strict to our food related traditions and coffee is definitely one of them
As a Swede, I've never been so deprived of good coffee as when I was in Italy. So heavily "roasted" (more like burnt or torched) that no taste except maybe tar or char is left. Served either in ant sized cups or with milk to mask the horrendous taste.
No, the Nordic way of light (or medium) roasted coffee prepared in a drip brewer is the only way.
If this breaks into Italy, I will make sure to stay away from it ;-).
As a Brit dating an Italian, I couldn't agree more. I like to enjoy my coffee, not just drink it for the effects. I will never understand the tiny intense espresso + double sugar combo as a way to finish every meal. I get palpatations just thinking about it.
That being said, I'm really enjoying weak watery coffee these days. Its sweeter, you taste the aroma more, and it's a nice slow high in the morning that teases you gently into a focused work mindset, instead of tense grinning-neurotic mess I used to be. Also, I can sleep better at night.
YES. I'm sorry, but I like my pasta floppy please. The sheer bloated feeling I get after eating an otherwise perfectly prepared dish is nothing to joke about.
For me espresso is the best coffee. I didn't like coffee before I tasted espresso on my first trip to Italy 15 years ago.
Nowadays most of our offices in Poland have espresso machines, so I can taste it here also.
What is funny is that when I was in our main office in US, they didn't have espresso machine, just some strange "coffee machine" that poured some coffee-like liquid.
I also don't get the big buckets of coffee premade and poured to the mugs in some traditional American diners.
In Poland the traditional way to prepare coffee is called "turkish style" (po turecku) - you put one or two spoons of ground coffee in glass or mug and pour hot water over it. I don't like that too much, but it tastes better than the US made version of coffee.
The audacity! Sure you have nice trains and welfare system, but claiming superiority over Italian coffee culture? I would prefer an espresso made on an Italian gas station at 2AM to a fancy Swedish roastery any time.
Neither Swedish nor Italian, but I completely agree. It took me a long time to realise I don't actually like espresso. There is this perception that espresso is "better" than other coffee. I guess it's the shiny machines, the weird noises they make and the fact that most people can't make it at home. I always thought that home methods like cafetière, drip/filter etc. were like poor imitations of the real deal.
I've recently learnt that most Starbucks have filter coffee as an off-menu item. It's still Starbucks but it's so much better than their "Americano". Unfortunately many will refuse to make it for you (presumably because it's more effort).
It's not that espresso can't be good, but for most places this is the cheap, low effort, coffee-on-demand. And in most of southern Europe (Italy, France, Spain) the taste seems to be for burnt coffee that all tastes the same.
Also, it really annoys me that if you order two drinks (like a café con leche in Spain) they'll split a double shot into two cups with one getting clearly more coffee than the other. It's a 50% chance you're going to get the weak brown milk.
> And in most of southern Europe (Italy, France, Spain) the taste seems to be for burnt coffee that all tastes the same.
Disclaimer: I'm a Spaniard.
Most cafes in Spain serve a particularly noxious form of burnt coffee called "torrefacto" [0], which is made by mixing sugar with the beans while they are being excessively roasted. This introduces additional bitterness and ash to what would have already been overly roasted beans.
For a country where coffee is often consumed multiple times a day, and where there are cafes in every corner, Spain has disappointingly terrible coffee.
Well, it's a post war reminiscence that thankfully is decreasing and has less presence in the market every day.
It made sense back in the day, in that postwar economy, as the sugar roasting process reduced its price and lengthened its shelf life. Mixing or even substituting in completely with chicory (depending on your wealth, or lack of it) was very common, and some old people still do it nowadays.
But still tastes burnt, so of course people do lots of sugar and milk on their coffee :p.
BTW, it's OK if any of you don't like coffee, or like it sugary, with milk, powdered, or in any coffee based drink that you like. I might be snobby with my coffee, but you can drink wathever do like. And in summer I always fancy a cold coffee with tigernut horchata (popular around Valencia, different from the Mexican one that's made with rice).
Oh, sorry for the misunderstanding, wasn't pointing at you, but just saying it aloud for everyone. Mugicha is great by the way, and now you say it, I forgot that I had some bags! Thanks!
Maybe that explains an experience I had when I was at Kubecon in Valencia a few years ago. The free coffee was some of the worst coffee I've ever had. It was filtered coffee, so not even very strong, but very bitter and tasted deeply burned. It was hard to drink, and every attendee seemed to agree. The huge line at a Nespresso counter was also pretty good proof of the general feeling about the coffee.
I'd rather have the brownish water they called coffee in the US office any day.
I was around there! In caterings is even worse, they're using that burnt coffee in huge unmaintained drippers making something very similar to airplane coffee. It's weird to have that burn-but-wattery coffee. You can for sure find better coffee in Valencia with no effort.
Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to imply that all coffee in Valencia is bad, not at all. I had a chance to visit the city and found some really good coffee too. It was just enlightening to understand why that particular coffee tasted so bad.
> I've recently learnt that most Starbucks have filter coffee as an off-menu item
And it’s faster to order, too! At least at the Starbucks’ I’ve been to, the barista/cashier will usually turn around and pour it immediately. Other drinks (even iced/cold brew) go into the queue.
Let me guess: you’re from Stockholm? Because you’re certainly not from my end of Sweden; until I moved here I’ve never tasted such a heavily roasted coffee as skånerost.
I also found that people in Uppsala drink comically dark, over-concentrated coffee. However, there is a fantastic little shop there selling some excellent (if very expensive) beans; if I remember the name I'll post it.
The US is a large place. Espresso in the US has likely had some of the most innovation in the world over the last 20 years. If you didn't find excellent coffee in the US then you were either in the middle of nowhere, or you didn't try.
Similar with Sweden. Stockholm has many excellent coffee shops. Maybe you need to put more effort in.
I never appreciated coffee before I lived in Australia.
The consistently excellent quality of coffee one got from any local cafe in Melbourne and Sydney was by far the highest I've seen anywhere in the world. Including Italy.
The only Starbucks I ever saw there was at the cruise ship terminal in Sydney.
I then moved to London and it was a very sad affair with coffee, I missed a good cup so much. Tho over the years they got more and more cafes that cared and had actually comparable coffee.
NYC has not great coffee culture (everyones on their laptops) despite some cafes serving okay coffee like Devocion perhaps among others. The Balkans where I am from has completely turned on the third wave coffee and combined with the coffee culture its amazing. People have 2-3 coffees a day just chilling under the sun. NYC should be ashamed. London is much better
NYC doesn't have the time or space for the kind of coffee culture you're talking about, but the coffee itself is as good as anywhere else — not Devocion though, that's pretty bad IMHO. SEY is where you wanna go, or Black Fox or maybe Saltwater if you're in Manhattan.
Definitely has the space, and can make the time but does not want to. It takes immense selfhatred to work that much to please your boss instead of enjoying your coffee with a friend. I will note down your recs though. Everyman espresso and La Cabra are also good. Here in the Balkans in the specialty cafes which are handful, I can actually choose between which beans I want to wnjoy, maybe competition coffee from 1600 meters from Peru, maybe Mexico 1300 meters, maybe Ethiopia or Tanzania, even Indian competition coffee that won the cup #2. I have never seen anything similar in NYC, not even close. The baristas dont even know how many grams they put in the portafilter. Its sad.
Italians will say this, then put a moka pot on the stove for five minutes until it's boiled through, and serve you the blackest, most burnt tar imaginable - stuff that could qualify as road building material - and then turn around and insult American food tastes whilst they've skipped two meals in favor of cigarettes and the lowest quality wine. But that's okay, because they have some expensive olive oil in a ceramic bottle for the last two years.
And you can't even accuse them of not having travelled enough, because half their young people are working across Europe, so they would know that there is better food out there in other countries - but they're doing that wine and cigarette diet so they remain ignorant and arrogant. They - you - are as bad as French people, but the rest of the world haven't discovered it yet.
This is a bit over the top and stereotypes/over-generalises...
Italian food is genuinely good, but is now, in my opinion, also too beholden to traditions and tribalism (food must be prepared in this way and you are wrong otherwise), and I perceive a relative lack of openness to different cuisines compared to some other countries.
Italian coffee is built on dark roasts of non-specialty (and often even Robusta) beans, which works well with milk-based drinks like cappuccinos but can also work well for espresso and moka brews too. Despite having a preference for lighter roasts I still enjoyed the coffee on my trip to Rome last year, and actually I would easily choose it over the big brand chains like Starbucks.
What I find Italy is missing is the so-called 'third-wave', where light and medium roasts are preferred and higher quality (think specialty or single-origin, typically always Arabica) beans are typically used. I believe that this is partly due to the fact that espresso prices are regulated in many parts of Italy to be as low as €1-1.50 and so the business model just doesn't work unless the beans are cheap too.
I would prefer having a coffee and a cigarette for lunch basking under the sun in Italy over eating hot pockets in a cubicle because I need a car to drive 30 mins to the nearest plaza that vaguely resembles a living breathing human settlement
It's also one of the world's top per capita consumers (and producer) of olive oil, so the chance of any given meal having old rancid olive oil in them is probably lower, rancidity being a function of throughout.
> Yes, we are still very strict to our food related traditions
Italian here. To those replying, this is the key takeaway. I think the poster means it'll take something insanely good for us to consider upending tradition. Not because we have the gold standard, but because we are so unbelievably stubborn and pig-headed :)
I have to agree with other posters Italian coffee is not very good (probably second worst I've experienced in Europe), and since you didn't addopt all the good new coffee stuff from the last ~30 years, I don't understand why would you addopt this.
Again, not saying we have good coffee. Our coffee is horrific. With that being said, the smell of coffee being torched in a Moka pot makes me nostalgic. While I recognise the taste is absolutely sub-standard compared to a single-origin brew carefully prepared, I still enjoy it. This falls in the category of: "people are allowed to like bad things."
No, the Nordic way of light (or medium) roasted coffee prepared in a drip brewer is the only way.
If this breaks into Italy, I will make sure to stay away from it ;-).