[globular-toast]

Neither Swedish nor Italian, but I completely agree. It took me a long time to realise I don't actually like espresso. There is this perception that espresso is "better" than other coffee. I guess it's the shiny machines, the weird noises they make and the fact that most people can't make it at home. I always thought that home methods like cafetière, drip/filter etc. were like poor imitations of the real deal.

I've recently learnt that most Starbucks have filter coffee as an off-menu item. It's still Starbucks but it's so much better than their "Americano". Unfortunately many will refuse to make it for you (presumably because it's more effort).

It's not that espresso can't be good, but for most places this is the cheap, low effort, coffee-on-demand. And in most of southern Europe (Italy, France, Spain) the taste seems to be for burnt coffee that all tastes the same.

Also, it really annoys me that if you order two drinks (like a café con leche in Spain) they'll split a double shot into two cups with one getting clearly more coffee than the other. It's a 50% chance you're going to get the weak brown milk.

[david-gpu]

> And in most of southern Europe (Italy, France, Spain) the taste seems to be for burnt coffee that all tastes the same.

Disclaimer: I'm a Spaniard.

Most cafes in Spain serve a particularly noxious form of burnt coffee called "torrefacto" [0], which is made by mixing sugar with the beans while they are being excessively roasted. This introduces additional bitterness and ash to what would have already been overly roasted beans.

For a country where coffee is often consumed multiple times a day, and where there are cafes in every corner, Spain has disappointingly terrible coffee.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torrefacto

[tecleandor]

Well, it's a post war reminiscence that thankfully is decreasing and has less presence in the market every day.

It made sense back in the day, in that postwar economy, as the sugar roasting process reduced its price and lengthened its shelf life. Mixing or even substituting in completely with chicory (depending on your wealth, or lack of it) was very common, and some old people still do it nowadays.

But still tastes burnt, so of course people do lots of sugar and milk on their coffee :p.

BTW, it's OK if any of you don't like coffee, or like it sugary, with milk, powdered, or in any coffee based drink that you like. I might be snobby with my coffee, but you can drink wathever do like. And in summer I always fancy a cold coffee with tigernut horchata (popular around Valencia, different from the Mexican one that's made with rice).

[david-gpu]

> I might be snobby with my coffee, but you can drink whatever you like.

Sure, I agree. My disappointment with torrefacto is just a personal opinion.

For example, I think chicory is great, and so is barley (mugicha). I would very much rather drink those instead of torrefacto.

[tecleandor]

Oh, sorry for the misunderstanding, wasn't pointing at you, but just saying it aloud for everyone. Mugicha is great by the way, and now you say it, I forgot that I had some bags! Thanks!

[simiones]

Maybe that explains an experience I had when I was at Kubecon in Valencia a few years ago. The free coffee was some of the worst coffee I've ever had. It was filtered coffee, so not even very strong, but very bitter and tasted deeply burned. It was hard to drink, and every attendee seemed to agree. The huge line at a Nespresso counter was also pretty good proof of the general feeling about the coffee.

I'd rather have the brownish water they called coffee in the US office any day.

[tecleandor]

I was around there! In caterings is even worse, they're using that burnt coffee in huge unmaintained drippers making something very similar to airplane coffee. It's weird to have that burn-but-wattery coffee. You can for sure find better coffee in Valencia with no effort.

[simiones]

Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to imply that all coffee in Valencia is bad, not at all. I had a chance to visit the city and found some really good coffee too. It was just enlightening to understand why that particular coffee tasted so bad.

[dceddia]

> I've recently learnt that most Starbucks have filter coffee as an off-menu item

And it’s faster to order, too! At least at the Starbucks’ I’ve been to, the barista/cashier will usually turn around and pour it immediately. Other drinks (even iced/cold brew) go into the queue.