[onethumb]

Ok, so you're an outlier. Which is ok - we're probably not building the right service for you or your 3 friends (who can easily download and stop paying - we're not holding them hostage). We're definitely not trying to build for everyone - we have a target in mind, which is consistent with Flickr's original target 20 years ago, and you're probably not it. We're 100M+ members, not billions, and proud of it because we're focused.

I'm sad that you keep dodging what I view as the more important questions after you accused us of "actual hostility", though. I'd really love to understand how we missed the mark for you, and how we've been hostile, in case that applies to non-outliers and it's something we can improve on.

Was offering years of downloads on a _free_ service hostile? In what way? Was delaying deletion to give more people more time to download hostile? Why? Do you really believe hundreds of millions of consumers all had backups? What other similar Internet services are better examples of handling a situation like this?

Or are you just trolling and I've been feeding a troll (if so, congrats, I feel like my troll detection is relatively high)?

[latchkey]

I'm not trolling. I'm just having a conversation trying to find a middle ground, but I don't think we are there at all. Especially since I'm in the bucket of outlier.

> I'd really love to understand how we missed the mark for you, and how we've been hostile, in case that applies to non-outliers and it's something we can improve on.

I thought I answered that above:

"Sending a FINAL NOTICE and then a more friendly reminder, and then not doing anything, is hostile behavior intended to extort people to pay money for a service that really hasn't seen any improvement in a very long time."

---

This conversation got me thinking about the history of things given that I've been a member of that site for 19 years. So, I went searching. This is a pretty good article I ran across from 2019:

https://ferdychristant.com/the-rise-fall-and-resurrection-of...

I find that little has changed since that article was written.

[onethumb]

The whole reason I'm having the conversation is that your statement is full of opinions, assumptions, and falsehoods. "not doing anything", "intended to extort people", and "hasn't seen any improvement in a very long time" are all incorrect. I can't find the truth, and I'm a truth seeker.

Let's start with the facts:

1. You have a free account and pay $0 for the service.

2. You received a few emails informing you of our choices when we changed the free account policies and limits.

3. Your choices included downloading your content, paying for the service, and/or closing your account.

4. You (and everyone) then got more time to make your choice than we'd originally said, for free.

5. Your account, for some reason, hasn't seen some of these changes, so you got even more time to make some of those choices, again for free.

None of that sounds hostile to me. I'm not sure who would consider that behavior hostile (more choices, more time, at $0 cost). Despite the depth of the conversation, I'm still struggling to understand (but, surprisingly, still open to the idea of) how we can be accused of "actual hostility".

Now, let's take your false statements:

- "not doing anything": I can assure you we've done many things, to many accounts. Using an online search engine will reveal plenty of examples. Why has your account not seen some of them? I don't know, but speculating that we haven't done "anything" is simply not true. Even your account has seen many changes, perhaps just not the one you highlight (removing your excess private photos). Try uploading more than 1000 public photos, as just one example of doing something.

- "intended to extort people": Simply not true. The choices were clear and the timeline was, and in your case, remains extremely generous. I happen to know the intent (not deleting any photos for as long as we possibly can) and you do not. Further, every action we've taken supports this intent. We didn't, and don't, hold any photos hostage for payment or anything else. There was no extortion, and there was certainly no intent to extort.

- "hasn't seen any improvement for a very long time": While it's possible you haven't seen any of YOUR preferred improvements, the list of improvements since we took over is long and consistent. We're averaging ~10 material improvements in the form of new features, upgraded features, and significant bug fixes, each month, for the last ~5 years. (Thousands of minor bug fixes, too) They're all well-documented on our blog[1] and in our help forum[2]. Our members agree, based on all of the feedback and data we see.

I typically love conversations like these, with "delightfully discontent" customers, because that's where the real value for learning and growth usually lies, not the thrilled customers I tend to meet day in & day out. I want to learn something here, so I and we can improve. It hasn't happened yet.

We clearly fucked up - you're upset, and you're bothering to engage. I just can't figure it out. Probably my fault. But I'll keep trying. :)

[1] - https://blog.flickr.net/

[2] - https://www.flickr.com/help/forum/

[latchkey]

Hilariously the emails have started up again after this conversation.

"Reminder: Your account is in violation of our free account limits."

So, here is my question... is it easy to locate AND change the privacy settings?

The instructions suggest that I can't search for my private images AND simply remove or change the privacy of them.

https://www.flickrhelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/4404078163732-C...

[latchkey]

I appreciate you correcting some of my falsehoods. However, I'm basing this on my impressions based on my experiences, and therefore valid in their own way.

I don't appreciate you basing your response on the idea that I'm a $0 service customer, so that I shouldn't expect anything. Nothing is ever free. My public photos drive clicks to the site and therefore paying customers. I don't get paid for that service, but you do.

We are going to have to agree to disagree on the emails. You say "simply not true", but ignore the simple fact that unless I pay for something that was previously otherwise zero cost, my photos will be deleted. Your counter argument to that is that at least the site is still up and running or that I can download the photos I already have archived. Again, that's your choice to try to bring the site to profitability, for your own financial benefit.

I'm glad you have so many happy customers. Seriously! I'm also not upset or angry and I don't appreciate being boxed in like some freeloading curmudgeon. You asked why one would move on from one of your services and I responded in kind with what I felt was valid feedback. Nothing more, nothing less.

[vishnumohandas]

This is a masterclass on customer support, thank you.

[latchkey]

That's interesting.

I see this as a masterclass on how to fail to convert a 19 year member of a website, back to a paying customer.

Yes, I used to pay for Flickr Pro. I stopped when I found that it wasn't providing me value other than "we will delete your private photos" if you don't pay up.

By the way, I did at one point look in the UX to see if there was a way to be able to view just my private photos so that I could delete them myself, but it wasn't obvious in my searching. It felt like it was intentionally difficult to even see if I wanted to keep an account.

Never once did he ask the simple question: "What can we do to convert you into a paying customer again?". Everything has been some sort of weird truth seeking mission to prove me wrong.

[ranger_danger]

You can't seriously expect them (or anyone) to always grandfather in old free accounts after starting to charge money, can you? Bandwidth and storage is not unlimited.

The fact that he even engaged with you at all, and to the degree he did, was incredibly kind and he showed much restraint, kudos to him for that.

But you continued to double-down on your opinions and think you're more important and worthy of his time than everyone else. Why is that?

[latchkey]

> You can't seriously expect them (or anyone) to always grandfather in old free accounts after starting to charge money, can you? Bandwidth and storage is not unlimited.

Never once asked for that. Although, let me remind you that he does in fact make money off driving traffic to my public images (and everyone else's as well). If he wants to give away that service for free, it is his business choice to do that.

> The fact that he even engaged with you at all, and to the degree he did, was incredibly kind and he showed much restraint, kudos to him for that.

Agreed. Kudos to him!

> But you continued to double-down on your opinions and think you're more important and worthy of his time than everyone else. Why is that?

I guess it is my fault for sticking to my opinions. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[vishnumohandas]

What can Flickr do to convert you into a paying customer again?

[onethumb]

Thank you. Your project looks really neat! Let me know if we can ever collaborate. More great services for photographers in the world is always a great thing, especially if they avoid lock-in.