[narag]

So I'll add another fading oddity from my own hometown in the south of Spain. We use ustedes (short of very archaic "vuestras mercedes" BTW) instead of vosotros.

That would seem not so odd, being ustedes the plural form of formal "you" usted, if not because ustedes should match "they" in verbal forms, while in fact it match plural "you". So no "ustedes saben" but "ustedes sabéis".

Even usted/ustedes is fading away, TV is so powerful. But I still hear that when back there for holidays.

[jyunwai]

As a person learning Spanish, this reminded me about how regional differences with the language has led to some debate about which variations to cover in courses and textbooks.

For example, a university course I took tested for the proper conjugation of verbs with "vosotros/as" (with its typical usage in Spain). But I later read about some debate over why the usage of vosotros/as was tested, but not the usage of voseo (vos for the singular instead of tú), despite its usage being common in large parts of Latin America.

Some textbooks for language learners treat voseo by including it in the conjugation tables just for awareness, but not testing this in the exercises. Your hometown's usage of "ustedes" is quite interesting, and it would be great to see it documented in a learner's textbook somewhere, to further reflect the diversity of the language.

[bdjsiqoocwk]

> As a person learning Spanish, this reminded me about how regional differences with the language has led to some debate about which variations to cover in courses and textbooks.

As a person who learned Spanish as a foreign language, let me assure you that none of this matters.

What matters is learning the language well enough to communicate without causing too much strain on the other person. If you can achieve this with a foreign language everyone will be really impressed and will understand if you learned one variant instead of another.

[jyunwai]

I generally agree with you as a learner, though I've found advantages and disadvantages to the fairly inflexible learning expectations provided by a university environment.

A useful aspect of the language that I was required to learn was a stricter focus on grammar. I got away for a while with a weaker understanding for verb conjugations during conversation, but the courses required me to learn this thoroughly. Though this wasn't necessary for general communication, this helped with preparation for a professional language assessment and for formal communications.

However, a less useful aspect that didn't matter much to my communication abilities came from taking a course on pronunciation. Though learning the pronunciation rules for the first two thirds was helpful for reducing my foreign accent, the last third required a couple assessments that heavily weighted students' abilities to identify the regional accent of a speaker (e.g. identifying between accents that were Andalusian versus Rioplatense versus Chilean). While there is arguably some value with identifying a speaker's accent from an interview or film, this took a lot of time that I could have spent learning other aspects of the language, and I wish this skill would've been optional to learn.

So, you've hit on one of the downsides of learning Spanish in a formal environment via inflexible expectations of learning goals, though I did find upsides too (that said, a motivated self-learner could absolutely learn grammar on their own—though a classroom environment does provide a nice motivation).

[narag]

Voseo is only used in Argentina, not sure if also in Uruguay. It's very localized, but still accepted and documented. Rest of speakers understand it no problem, it's very easy to get used to it.

This link to the Spanish Real Academia web shows a verb conjugation (scroll down):

https://dle.rae.es/hablar?m=form

It includes the usted,vos forms.

[lcall]

I know "vos" (which I think voseo means, from this discussion?) is also used in Guatemala, and someone else here mentioned it as used in Paraguay. I read years ago that such things originated based on in which century and from what part of Spain someone migrated.

[narag]

Vos is an archaic pronoun that was used to address the nobility. Like usted it was associated with a different verbal form, in this case the plural. You address a noble as if he was more than one person. I guess that's hard to appreciate in English that doesn't make a differece even in the pronoun: you for one you and you for multiple yous.

Argentinian Voseo is using the pronoun but not the majestic plural. Instead they create a brand new form, altering the accent. I had no idea that it was so extended outside Argentina. That surprises me because I know people from many of the relevant countries and had not heard any of them using it, except Argentinians.

[lcall]

Interesting; thanks. Actually I don't know how heavily "vos" is used in Guatemala. I know it is used extensively (I heard it occasionally: "mir'a vos", like "look, dude"), but I got the vague impression it might be mostly youths being chummy with each other, and/or could be considered less-educated, but I'm really not sure at all. Other missionaries and I always used Usted regardless of who we were talking with. I did hear that "tu" was only for boys trying to sound romantic to their girlfriend, imitating television.

[ChainOfFools]

English once did have a 2p distinction - 'you' was formerly the plural form, singular was marked by the now archaic 'thou.' Thou disappeared during the 17th and 18th centuries and "you" + context assumed the duties of both pronouns.

[telesilla]

Isn't this the same in Mexico and other central american countries? I don't know what they don't use vosotros there but perhaps it's a link to the reason in your home town. Ustedes is very normal in Mexico and use of vosotros indicates you are a foreigner (a native speaker should confirm but that's my experience)

[narag]

Not sure if I explained it well. The difference between tú/vosotros y usted/ustedes is the former is informal while the latter is more formal, showing extra respect for the interlocutor. Usted/ustedes uses the same verbal forms as he/she/they, instead of the ones for "you".

The oddity is that this use of "ustedes" (only in plural, not for "usted") uses the verbal form for "you all" instead of the verbal form for "they", so it's weird for people from other parts of the country.

As for the use of "usted" in general, it's declining, specially in urban areas.