[JimDabell]

> Revenue doesn't really matter

Grandparent is claiming that Apple aren’t a hardware company any more. Pointing out that the vast majority of their income comes from hardware is totally relevant.

Apple brings in hundreds of billions from selling hardware every year. They are definitely still a hardware company.

[the_gipsy]

The income is irrelevant if it's just a vessel to make profits from the services. In detriment of the user, who once could trust that they were buying a device, but now are getting locked in some subscription schemes.

Apple has passed the event horizon of extracting profits now.

[JimDabell]

> The income is irrelevant if it's just a vessel to make profits from the services.

It’s not though. Apple are bringing in hundreds of billions of dollars every year from hardware. That’s not a means to an end, that is the end itself.

[the_gipsy]

You seem to not understand the difference between income and profit.

[JimDabell]

I do, but unless you think Apple’s hundreds of billions in hardware revenue is some kind of loss leader, it’s irrelevant.

Apple are a hardware company. It’s bizarre that you are trying to argue otherwise. They make more money from selling consumer hardware than practically every other company in the world.

[disgruntledphd2]

> Apple are a hardware company. It’s bizarre that you are trying to argue otherwise. They make more money from selling consumer hardware than practically every other company in the world.

You are definitely correct in that Apple are a hardware company.

However (and I think this is the point of disagreement) much of their revenue growth (and presumably profits, but that's harder to assess) comes from services, and from a stock price perspective revenue/profit growth is what matters (you're only as good as your last quarter and all that).

Understanding this is key to understanding lots of Apple's business decisions recently (my favourite was destroying the business model of their competitors using ATT and then refusing to declare their own ad business ATT compliant).

[JimDabell]

> I think this is the point of disagreement

I appreciate you trying to steel-man their argument, but you’ve gone far enough that it doesn’t reflect what they were actually saying. The thing I’m disagreeing with is:

> Apple's no longer a hardware company

There’s no way to spin that into anything resembling reality. If they had said what you are saying, I wouldn’t have objected.

> my favourite was destroying the business model of their competitors using ATT and then refusing to declare their own ad business ATT compliant

It doesn’t really make sense to do so. Apple aren’t an unseen third-party; the user has explicitly chosen to use their products and services. Why would ATT apply here?

[the_gipsy]

What makes you say that it's irrelevant unless it's a loss leader?

When BMW is gatekeeping features behind subscriptions, is that also irrelevant because they're a car company? We shouldn't just stop discussing it.

[JimDabell]

You’ve just switched out the argument for a different one.

I was saying that the difference between revenue and profit is irrelevant for the purpose of this argument. You’re now trying to draw an analogy with what I said and gatekeeping features behind subscriptions, which is not what I called irrelevant.

The analogous situation is if you said BMW were no longer a car company for doing so, and I’d disagree with that as well. Apple makes tonnes of money selling hardware, BMW makes tonnes of money selling cars. Apple is still a hardware company and BMW is still a car company.

[fillipvt]

aren't profit margins the main drivers for the decisions leading to this post to begin with? if revenue was all they cared about, I don't think what's happening would come to fruition

[mdhb]

He seems to have a habit of doing this.

A few weeks ago I was also stuck in a situation where he appeared to play dumb and refused to acknowledge the contradictions in his positions and the level of indignation that followed afterwards was unbelievable.

[JimDabell]

No, you were repeatedly insulting me and when I rejected that, you told me I was getting worked up and continued insulting me. You were saying that it literally wasn’t possible to honestly disagree with you:

> this also isn’t a legitimate difference of opinion scenario.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39026820

You were being unreasonable and insulting. If you are going to continue to act like that, how about we stay out of each other’s way? Don’t drag this thread down into a flamewar as well.