[JimDabell]

> The income is irrelevant if it's just a vessel to make profits from the services.

It’s not though. Apple are bringing in hundreds of billions of dollars every year from hardware. That’s not a means to an end, that is the end itself.

[the_gipsy]

You seem to not understand the difference between income and profit.

[JimDabell]

I do, but unless you think Apple’s hundreds of billions in hardware revenue is some kind of loss leader, it’s irrelevant.

Apple are a hardware company. It’s bizarre that you are trying to argue otherwise. They make more money from selling consumer hardware than practically every other company in the world.

[disgruntledphd2]

> Apple are a hardware company. It’s bizarre that you are trying to argue otherwise. They make more money from selling consumer hardware than practically every other company in the world.

You are definitely correct in that Apple are a hardware company.

However (and I think this is the point of disagreement) much of their revenue growth (and presumably profits, but that's harder to assess) comes from services, and from a stock price perspective revenue/profit growth is what matters (you're only as good as your last quarter and all that).

Understanding this is key to understanding lots of Apple's business decisions recently (my favourite was destroying the business model of their competitors using ATT and then refusing to declare their own ad business ATT compliant).

[JimDabell]

> I think this is the point of disagreement

I appreciate you trying to steel-man their argument, but you’ve gone far enough that it doesn’t reflect what they were actually saying. The thing I’m disagreeing with is:

> Apple's no longer a hardware company

There’s no way to spin that into anything resembling reality. If they had said what you are saying, I wouldn’t have objected.

> my favourite was destroying the business model of their competitors using ATT and then refusing to declare their own ad business ATT compliant

It doesn’t really make sense to do so. Apple aren’t an unseen third-party; the user has explicitly chosen to use their products and services. Why would ATT apply here?

[disgruntledphd2]

Because it's grossly unfair and mendacious to argue that nobody except them should be able to link identities on iOS.

[JimDabell]

They don’t do that as far as I am aware? On two counts. Firstly, they don’t say nobody should be able to link identities, and secondly Apple doesn’t link identities in their ad business.

Just to clarify, ATT is where Apple says that apps can’t collect data on you and share it with other companies without your permission.

When somebody buys and uses an iPhone, they are clearly making an active choice to be an Apple user. Apple can use their data.

When somebody installs a third-party app Foo, they are clearly making an active choice to be a Foo user. Foo can use their data.

But then Foo adds the Facebook SDK to their app. This is invisible to the user. They haven’t made a choice to be a Facebook user. They don’t even know it’s happening. When Facebook gets their data because they use the Foo application, it’s happening without the user’s knowledge or consent.

ATT doesn’t ban Facebook from tracking them, it just says that the user needs to be asked first. It’s putting Facebook’s access to data on the same level of consent as Apple and the apps people choose to use.

Apple using your tracking data in their own ad business doesn’t violate that norm. The data isn’t being sent to an unknown third-party. Apple says:

> The Apple advertising platform does not track you, nor does it buy or share your personal information with other companies.

— https://www.apple.com/sg/privacy/control/

Do you have reason to believe this is a lie? Because if it’s the truth, then Apple are playing by the same rules as everybody else.

[the_gipsy]

What makes you say that it's irrelevant unless it's a loss leader?

When BMW is gatekeeping features behind subscriptions, is that also irrelevant because they're a car company? We shouldn't just stop discussing it.

[JimDabell]

You’ve just switched out the argument for a different one.

I was saying that the difference between revenue and profit is irrelevant for the purpose of this argument. You’re now trying to draw an analogy with what I said and gatekeeping features behind subscriptions, which is not what I called irrelevant.

The analogous situation is if you said BMW were no longer a car company for doing so, and I’d disagree with that as well. Apple makes tonnes of money selling hardware, BMW makes tonnes of money selling cars. Apple is still a hardware company and BMW is still a car company.

[the_gipsy]

> the difference between revenue and profit is irrelevant for the purpose of this argument

Why?

[JimDabell]

Because you have been saying that Apple are no longer a hardware company. Apple bring in hundreds of billions of dollars in revenue from hardware, which quite clearly qualifies them as one of the most successful consumer hardware companies today. The only way revenue vs profit would be relevant to that is if you somehow thought that Apple had terrible margins on their hardware. Do you think that?

[fillipvt]

aren't profit margins the main drivers for the decisions leading to this post to begin with? if revenue was all they cared about, I don't think what's happening would come to fruition

[mdhb]

He seems to have a habit of doing this.

A few weeks ago I was also stuck in a situation where he appeared to play dumb and refused to acknowledge the contradictions in his positions and the level of indignation that followed afterwards was unbelievable.

[JimDabell]

No, you were repeatedly insulting me and when I rejected that, you told me I was getting worked up and continued insulting me. You were saying that it literally wasn’t possible to honestly disagree with you:

> this also isn’t a legitimate difference of opinion scenario.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39026820

You were being unreasonable and insulting. If you are going to continue to act like that, how about we stay out of each other’s way? Don’t drag this thread down into a flamewar as well.