[jws]

I married into toaster moguls. When they sold out in '97, domestic toasters had been infeasible for years already. And this was for a company where all the knowledge, equipment, and facilities had beed paid for many decades before. (They invented the electric pop-up toaster for certain definitions of electric pop-up toaster.)

Toasters are refined brilliance, if done right. The concept of "done" is computed using an analog computer programmed by human experts. (Ok, its usually a bimetal strip but it is placed so that the cooling of the moist bread keeps it from going off and your lighter-darker input is biasing when it considers the toast done.)

Tear apart some toasters. There won't be anything in a modern cheap toaster that isn't absolutely required. Ask yourself why everything is the way it is.

Research the UL requirements. I have the corporate 2 pound copper ball that had to be dropped on things from prescribed heights and not cause malfunction. Make sure you can hit this targets with what you think you can build. Also check the CE, they might have more modern rules.

Be ready for litigation. Toasters catch fire. The toaster moguls were horrified whenever they saw someone's toaster under a cabinet. Decades after selling the business they were still being sued by mesothelioma suits for things like a repairman that got lung cancer and repaired home appliances, so he probably might have worked on one of their 1920's models with asbestos insulation. Don't let it stop you, but put the backup insurance into the expenses.

[zemvpferreira]

>I married into toaster moguls

Truly, hacker news is the most wonderfully diverse ecosystem.

[diydsp]

That is a sign of a well-capitalized, but not diverse milieu.

[addandsubtract]

Ironic to see, that after all the litigations were settled, OP was toast.

[arghwhat]

> Toasters are refined brilliance, if done right. The concept of "done" is computed using an analog computer programmed by human experts.

That hasn't been the case in ages. Modern cheap toasters use a dedicated toaster chip (... yes), which is a plain timer but with built-in retained heat compensation for when the toaster is used back-to-back. Fewer components equals cheaper toaster.

A very fancy toaster would have sensor for the bread (mimicking the Sunbeam) rather than a timer, but that's not common.

Either way, any toaster you buy today is a digital computer. :)

[tim333]

Gosh I didn't know there were toaster chips but it seems so. One here 8 pin package with pin 3 being the bagel pin. https://www.diodes.com/assets/Datasheets/PT8A2514A.pdf

[crabmusket]

Seeing "BAGEL" on a pinout diagram is very cute.

> As input, requires a positive pulse to active "Bagel" function.

> As output, gives a "Bagel" function indicator, active high.

[sgarland]

I have wondered for the longest time what the BAGEL button actually did, because on my cheap toaster, it seems to do very little.

Unfortunately I still have more questions after reading the schematic.

SW4 (BAGEL) allows current flow through R9/LED3 (BAGEL) which raises Vbe on Q2, forward biasing it, allowing current flow through Q2, dropping Vcs.

Meanwhile, power has been flowing through the main switch, with RL3/RL4 making a voltage divider. That main power flows to D1, forward biasing it, and then hits the cathode of D4, reverse biasing it, and allows Relay 1 to hold main power closed. The cathode of D4 also tees off to inputs on Relay 2, and the cathode of D5 (whose anode is fed by both another input on Relay 2, and the source of Q2).

So, when Q2’s Vcs drops due to it turning on, D5 presumably reverse biases, so the only input felt on Relay 2-2 is from D1. And Relay 2 does… something. If anyone else can explain, I’d be grateful.

[lorax]

The bagel button makes only one side of the slot get hot (or at least makes one side hotter than the other). Your toaster probably has a bagel icon on the top showing you which way to put the bagel in (cut side towards the center in every toaster I have seen).

Source: I'm not married to toaster moguls but I do peer into operating toasters to see which wires turn red. Feel free to replicate my research and post your observations.

[sgarland]

Mine doesn’t have a bagel icon, but I do put them cut-side towards the center.

Looking closely during operation, the elements facing out from the center didn’t appear to change color with the bagel button depressed. It toasts the bagel just fine (as well as bread), though.

I should get a wattmeter and see if power draw changes.

[20after4]

My theory is that the bagel button does one thing only - it illuminates the bagel button when you press it. I've seen toasters with functional bagel mode but my latest cheap crap toaster does precisely nothing different when the bagel button is activated.

[dublin]

I don't think I've ever before been party to any conversation where the words "toaster mogul" ever appeared in the exchange, and yet, here they are, in all their golden brown and delicious glory!

[dzhiurgis]

Okay then. What does the frozen bread button do?

[lorax]

Ok, so that I didn't know. Here's from the Oster website: "When this feature is selected, the toaster will automatically defrost your food and then toast it in one easy step." So the temperature is lower for a little bit to thaw the food then higher to toast it.

[arghwhat]

The example toaster has 2 toast slots 3 heating elements (EDIT: Technically 4, as the last element is split into two: RL3 and RL4).

Relay 2, activated when the "bagel" light is lit through the gate of Q2, disconnects neutral from heating element 2 (the one in between slot 1 and 2) and 1 (the one on the outside of slot 2).

This means that there is only power to the outside heating element of slot 1, allowing you to toast only one side of a bread or bagel.

[sgarland]

Then what is RL4? If it were just a resistor for a voltage divider, I’d think it might be labeled differently than the other three.

[arghwhat]

RL3 and RL4 are both heating elements in slot 1 - likely just one heating element with a tap somewhere - that indeed acts like a voltage divider.

The power to the circuit flows from in between those heating elements, through a single rectifier (D1), through a 1W resister (R1), before being clamped to 5.1V by a zener (VZ1). The use of the heating element as a voltage divider is just to get closer to the target voltage (<15V considering the rating of C1), using the fact that a heating element is just a resistor with an enormous power rating. No one cares about the power efficiency of a toaster control circuit.

However, the schematic is missing a connection to VCC from the 5V rail it created - it only connects to the high side of the mains relay/toast magnet as well as the bagel button. It was supposed to connect to VCC, which in that schematic is only connected as to the clock circuit.

(I was not using the RL numbers when I numbered the heating elements in my previous comment originally - my bad. I updated the comment.)

[sotix]

I have a different experience than the other commentator with my toaster’s bagel button. Both sides still get heated. My bagel button makes the toasting cycle last longer than normal, which is perfect for defrosting a frozen bagel and then toasting to the setting the wheel is set to.

[arghwhat]

Is it labelled "bagel", or is it a symbol that could be interpreted? What you describe is what the "defrost" feature of the linked circuit would do.

I have certainly misinterpreted iconography completely before...

[sotix]

It's labeled bagel, and there is a separate defrost button. According to this[0] manual from Cuisinart, "The bagel feature adds extra time to the toasting cycle to allow for thicker breads." So there's our answer!

[0] https://www.cuisinart.ca/on/demandware.static/-/Sites-ca-cui...

[FirmwareBurner]

Intel makes pretty good toaster chips too.

https://www.overclock.net/threads/worried-about-13900k-tempe...

[arghwhat]

A few hundred degrees celsius off mate.

[GTP]

Yes, but too expensive for my taste.

[grepfru_it]

Intel is tame. My Ryzen 9 operates at 90C and is considered normal

[mst]

I wonder if my first gen. Athlon 850 still runs, and if so what (other than itself) I could potentially cook with it.

[terom]

https://www.mouser.fi/ProductDetail/Diodes-Incorporated/PT8A...

Now I want to buy a couple... 0.856 € unit price for 1pcs, available in stock.

New evil plan: corner the market on toaster controller ICs and build up a strategic reserve to resell to manufacturers at inflated prices.

[tensility]

Of course, there's also the June "toaster oven". ;-)

[carabiner]

I worked at a small aircraft company and one of the oldtimers told me lawsuits almost sank the company multiple times. As human transport, people WILL die in your product. Whether it's your fault or theirs, the lawsuits are a huge amount of money and no less important than the engineering quality. And so the company got lawyers and even a lawyer for president, not an engineer, and is still doing really well.

[masto]

They don't all have nothing that isn't required. My toaster runs Android, has a touch screen, WiFi and an app, and a camera for the AI to identify what you put in it and so you can watch a live stream of your toast or play back recordings from the cloud. It was a pre-order in 2015 that didn't ship for two years. Unfortunately they sold out to Weber a couple of years ago and the product has been discontinued, much to the disappointment of the few remaining loyal fans.

I hoped that was the kind of toaster OP wanted to make, but despite what I wrote above, this is not a disagreement with anything you said. I think people have mostly come to their senses (or have just run out of disposable income) these days and I suspect the market for $1500 smart toasters, if it ever existed, has dried up.

[crazygringo]

I really thought you were joking until I just looked up "smart toasters".

I can't find any that have a camera inside though, and I can't imagine how there would even be room for a field of view for one.

Unless you mean a toaster oven which is different? Turns out Breville makes one with a camera, much to my surprise.

[RockCoach]

>and I can't imagine how there would even be room for a field of view for one.

By making the walls transparent?

[taulien]

I can't say if you are kidding or not.

I am a little bit worried, that you aren't.

[masto]

I was mildly exaggerating for comic effect, but not kidding. I bought it, I set it up, I filmed it. We still use it every day, and I will be sad when it breaks because they are no more. https://youtu.be/JTvJSRPIo90?si=mjCLawXg6Kt-pDDQ&t=585

[tensility]

They are pretty great. Sad that it was apparently only an aquihire by Weber.

[ThePowerOfFuet]

>My toaster runs Android, has a touch screen, WiFi and an app, and a camera for the AI to identify what you put in it and so you can watch a live stream of your toast or play back recordings from the cloud.

You—you're kidding, right? Right?

[ultra-jeremyx]

They are talking about a June oven, which is a smart oven and far more advanced than a toaster. https://juneoven.com/

[dzhiurgis]

I've just played around with dalle and discord on toaster designs and tbh I wouldn't mind something that can store bread and automatically toast it by voice command (also remembers my preference via profile). And it shouldn't cost more than $150.

[riddley]

>They don't all have nothing that isn't required.

I'm not smart enough to parse that sentence, I think.

[dekhn]

Upthread somebody asserted modern toasters have no unnecessary components (see also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muntzing) and this sentence is saying "not all toasters have only the minimal required components".

[madeofpalk]

Surely in 2015 we all knew that a wifi toaster running android was going to be a disaster?

[HomeDeLaPot]

"Hackers compromised my toaster and burned down my house."

[meeech]

The comment op clearly states "modern cheap toaster". The toaster you describe is not that.

[masto]

Two out of three ain't bad?

But yeah, you're right, it's really in the "countertop smart oven" category, but I saw a thread about toasters and I wanted to share what to me is kind of a funny example of early 21st century toaster-adjacent tech enthusiasm.

[dtnewman]

> * When they sold out in '97, domestic toasters had been infeasible for years already. *

I’m not gonna claim to know anything about toasters or manufacturing, but I’d hypothesize that selling American made toasters to the masses is no longer feasible. Most people just want to buy a cheap toaster and don’t care where it is made. So if you were a large company selling to the masses, that business model doesn’t work. But that doesn’t mean you can’t make a much smaller business selling to toast enthusiasts today. I just think it’s largely about branding. Can you make a superior, long, lasting toaster that will appeal to toaster enthusiasts? And can you do it for a price that is in the realm of reasonable? I can imagine buying an overpriced toaster that will last me 30 years for $300 (I personally wouldn’t but if we’re into toast, maybe). But I wouldn’t spend $1000 on it. On the other hand, what do I know? There’s plenty of fancy coffee equipment that sells for more than that, although I’d guess that the coffee snob market is much larger.

[tonyedgecombe]

We have one manufacturer in the UK that still makes toasters here.

https://www.dualit.com/products/4-slice-newgen

Not their whole range though, the cheaper products come from China.

[coffeebeqn]

I know there is a niche - someone posted Balmuda earlier. I do wonder how far it scales. If you love bread there are better investments than a fancy toaster

[PaulHoule]

Your inlaws had the best information in '97 and wealth of knowledge about specific products but the right entrepreneur might see it differently these days. (e.g. your inlaws could sell out and get into another business because their brand still had value)

I went to Best Buy to buy a microwave oven last weekend and noticed that all the microwaves: (a) had a Proposition 65 label (see https://www.mychemicalfreehouse.net/2023/06/why-most-applian...) or (b) were made in China.

Had any microwave been different on front (a) or front (b) it would have been shortlisted in a second. Instead I had to compare a number of twisty little claims that all looked alike and face the strong temptation to buy the absolutely cheapest because it seems the $250 microwave could just as well burn out in two years.

As for toasters my recollection as a kid growing up was that toasters were made of metal and could toast bread quickly. When manufacturing went to China I remember my mother-in-law buying several plastic toasters from Wal-Mart in succession that burned up within weeks. Eventually Chinese toasters became reliable at the expense of running at half the speed of old toasters which they countered by adding more slots.

Today there are more concerns than ever about China's centrality in manufacturing so politics alone mean more consumers are like me and would be receptive to products which have a different origin (say Vietnam, Pakistan, Tunisa, etc.) particularly if this is coupled with a clear difference in quality, which I know is possible because of my history with toasters.

It is so for toasters but also for other domestic appliances. If you could communicate that you're really different there is a frustrated consumer who would listen.

[jen20]

There was an interesting segment on the Accidental Tech Podcast [1] recently about microwaves, I did not realise that there were effectively only a couple of actual microwave units on the market and everything else is brand wrapping around it.

I replaced my need for a toaster recently with a Breville Joule oven, and am quite impressed, I'd definitely buy one of their microwaves if I ever needed one.

[1]: https://atp.fm/560

[ericpauley]

AFAIK Breville microwaves are also made by Midea.

[cavisne]

Starbucks coffee has a Prop 65 label. It's likely that any domestic toaster would also put one on. The reason for this is the onus is on the company to prove it doesn't have any risky chemicals. The USA is the land of the frivolous lawsuit so its just not worth it.

[PaulHoule]

I'd say yes and no.

The last Prop 65 label that I thought a lot about was on a bag of Asian fried snacks that had high levels of acrylamide which is a real cancer concern but on the other hand there acrylamide in all kinds of traditionally prepared foods as well as "ultra processed" foods.

Before that there was the garden hose nozzle that had brass with about 10% lead because lead makes machining brass dramatically easier but on the other hand do I want to be touching a 10% lead object a lot or getting lead in my garden?

The microwave probably gets it because of bisphenol A in polycarbonate plastics which really is a problem, the exact extent of which we don't know. It might be the reason why somebody you know is massively overweight or why your sperm count is down.

So even though the P65 label is commonly about a risk people widely accept I'd be happier to get something w/o a P65 label than one with it and getting rid of that label would be a real incentive to improve safety just as RoHS has been. The difference is that P65 is a lot harsher.

If anything, the PFAS debacle has proved that the "you have to prove substance X is harmful" model is not effective in situations where X is one of 10,000 harmful substances... I mean if you replace Bisphenol A with Bisphenol B you are probably not making a real difference.

[lazide]

Unless you’re microwaving your food in direct contact with the inside surfaces of the microwave - which is nearly impossible and would make an incredible mess - how could BPA in your microwave ever matter at all?

Oh, and unless you’re drinking directly from your garden hose (which is a terrible idea and will likely make you very sick), it really doesn’t matter if your garden hose nozzle is ‘lead free’ (which still has lead btw!) or not.

[silverlake]

Making a cheap toaster for the masses is a difficult business today. Making a luxury product for a smaller audience is still feasible. I have a $300 Balmuda toaster that is honestly very good (it’s a steam oven). Previously I had a Breville toaster oven that was big enough to handle 80% of my oven tasks, but didn’t toast bread all that well. Tovala and Joule make fancy toaster ovens.

[iancmceachern]

I think it's a steel ball. Either way, it's a terrifying object, that ball, when flying through the air.

[stuaxo]

Weird, I was just wondering 5 minutes ago if someone could do a modern take on the toaster that used the bimetallic strip - no necessarily the same mechanism but something analogue that gave a similar result.