[askonomm]

United States is one country. European Union is not a country, it is a collection of many independent countries with separate laws, languages, cultures, governments. You can also live and work from any corner of the same country in EU if you want, provided that your job is also in the same country, just like in the U.S. This is not any different.

What you're saying is like can you work for a Canadian company while living in the U.S? Or an Argentinian company while living in the U.S? I don't think so. So I fail to see how U.S is somehow better here, and you're comparing European Union to 1 country, which is just ridiculous, since EU is not a country. European Union "states" are not the same as U.S states. They are actual countries.

[randomdata]

> What you're saying is like can you work for a Canadian company while living in the U.S?

Yes, of course. You do need government approval, but generally they are willing.

However, one of the supposed goals of the EU's creation was to allow free movement of labour across member countries. Exactly so you can work in another EU country without having to secure government approval.

It is interesting that you say not only did the EU fail on that front, but that it has managed to create a situation worse than countries that have never made a formal attempt to go down that road.

[lm28469]

Well yes, free movement of labor, aka people _moving_ to their job. Not people fleeing their country to enjoy cheap Greek beaches on German salaries

[FirmwareBurner]

The EU "freedom of movement" for work was drafted something like 60 years ago, well before the advent of remote work or even the internet itself, and is in a dire need of an update to modern times and modern ways of work.

Labor mobility doesn't just mean me being free to moving across countries for work.

Labor mobility means me being free to work for whichever company I want in the EU as an EU citizen, it doesn't have to mandate that I have to physically be there in that country for that particular job if physical presence is not required for that job (aka the majority of the white collar laptop-class, which we learned in the pandemic)

Does my code run better at my German employer if run from a German home wifi instead of a Romanian or Bulgarian home wifi? Then why should I have to be in Germany to do that job and not any other EU state suffice?

Yes, I know about all the different laws and taxes of each country and all that legal mumbo-jumbo, but those laws that hinder this can always be changed in order to facilitate this, same how we changed them to have free trade of goods, free EU wide emergency healthcare for EU members, or how we abolished GSM roaming fees such that my SIM hooks on to any cell tower on EU soil and I don't have to pay extra, ain't that amazing.

So then why aren't we(the EU) doing it? Eu-wide remote work labor regualtions(or more like de-regualtuions) would bring more benefits to the block as a whole.

[lm28469]

Again, it's already possible. The EU's job isn't to please a couple thousands of code monkeys who want to get German salaries and Spanish lifestyle. The IT sector is one of the least impacted here, because it's already possible for companies to hire from other EU countries if they really want to

[meheleventyone]

Whilst I agree with you in principle it’s also employers being lazy, they absolutely can take on the burden of paying someone in a different country as an employee.

I work for a US based company in Iceland and they pay me as a FTE here and have done/do so in multiple other European countries.

[FirmwareBurner]

>it’s also employers being lazy, they absolutely can take on the burden of paying someone in a different country as an employee

It's less about being lazy and more about the financial, law and tax overhead that comes with legally employing someone in another EU country as a FTE, as in most cases it means opening up a subsidiary/legal entity in that country which means another country who's laws you have to comply with. Not a huge issue for large enterprises which are already present in most countries anyway, but a big problem for small and medium sized companies. Unlike when doing business, a single EU legal entity is not enough to hire people remotely, you need a presence in each country where your workforce resides.

>I work for a US based company in Iceland and they pay me as a FTE here and have done/do so in multiple other European countries.

May I ask how? Did your employer open up an Iceland entitty or did they use some employer of record?

[randomdata]

"You have free movement to any country in the EU you want... Unless you want to keep your job, then you've another thing coming!" is not a freedom.

Which is fine. The people of the EU can make whatever decisions they want. But it is funny that it has ended up with less freedom, after wanting to provide more freedom, than countries that have never tried to give more freedom.

[meheleventyone]

Arguably most people’s jobs don’t let them move countries and being able to do so is largely the preserve of the fortunate. I imagine most people would also find it hard to move any significant internal distance.

You’d be amazed at how many people make use of this freedom in the EU though despite the cultural, linguistic and bureaucratic barriers. It was pretty mind blowing to me when I could just move my life from Scotland to Iceland. Particularly as that’s a significantly different transition than moving from one state in the US to another.

[randomdata]

Generally, if you have work authorization in a given country, it is unlikely that country cares where you actually do the work. In fact, it is normally considered beneficial for a country to allow domestic work to happen outside of its borders in order to grease international trade.

In a vacuum it may not be surprising that EU member countries have chosen to be more protectionist. However, the EU was created specifically to allow free movement of labour. For it to explicitly deny free movement of labour is... interesting.

[FirmwareBurner]

>Generally, if you have work authorization in a given country, it is unlikely that country cares where you actually do the work. In fact, it is normally considered beneficial for a country to allow domestic work to happen outside of its borders in order to grease international trade.

That's false for a lot of the EU. It's usally the opposite. They force you to do the work within gthe country's premises so you contribute to the taxes and busineses there instead of abroad.

[FirmwareBurner]

I never said the EU is a country (nor does it need to be to fulfill my point), but as an economic block, if it wishes to compete with the US in terms of economy and innovation, it needs to do better in terms of labor mobility, and the current status quo is holding it back.

I hope my point of what I originally meant is clear now and you don't need to explain anymore about why the EU is not a country like the US.

[lm28469]

It's completely possible in theory, just very hard in practice.

It's an economical alliance, not a federation, each country has different tax, social security, pension, health insurance, labor laws, &c. all of them are as complex as your home country's one, but now you have to deal with them in a foreign language, and your employer hr has to deal with them too

It's just much easier to relocate or hire a local than to play this game for a nomad tech bro that will stay 2 years before jumping to his next adventure

So yes you seem to acknowledge the reality that the EU is composed of different countries but you don't seem to grasp the complexity of the consequences

[FirmwareBurner]

>just very hard in practice

Yes it is, by design. And why aren't we(the EU) trying to make it easier?

>It's just much easier to relocate or hire a local

Is it? Then what about the famous "m'uh labor shortage" employers are crying about? If they'd be open and have simpler ways to hire people remotely from other EU memebrs, their labor shortages could be over.

Phisical relocation of people/families across countries just for a job that can be done remotely, is also a huge PITA for the environment due to all the back and forth traveling between home country and work country people do, and for the housing market, not to mention for the family unit and communities loosing people having to uproot themveles just to press keys on a laptop but only if done inside the right EU country for the same souless corporation. Do I need to state even more benefits of easy EU wide remote work would bring or is the silliness of the current EU status quo beginning to sink in?

>but you don't seem to grasp the complexity of the consequences

Oh I know the complexities very well, but that was not my point. My point was: why aren't we(the EU) fighting to reduce or emliminate those complexities in order to imporve labor mobility which would help reduce labor shortages and also improve the job prospects of people who can't relocate due to family or whatever personal reasons?

[lm28469]

> why aren't we(the EU) fighting to reduce or emliminate those complexities

Because, again, the EU is composed of different countries with different laws/culture/opinions/&c. we can't agree on most things do you think it's just a matter of "want". Again it's an economical alliance not a federation, if we wanted a federation we'd have a federation

You seem to imagine this is a detail but it really isn't one. Labor laws didn't materialise out of thin air in anno domini 2024, there are hundreds of years of inertia. The ultra privileged "laptop class" making 2-5x the min wage of their respective country's wage isn't a top priority for our overlords in Bruxelles