[ksenzee]

There's this idea that west coast cities are shitholes, and honestly it's BS. I live in the Seattle suburbs and I'm downtown regularly, and the only obvious problem is the public disorder visited on us all by Martin v. Boise. It's pretty clear from housing prices that wealthy people are still happy living in Seattle: the market is speaking loudly. Don't get me wrong—I live in the suburbs for a reason, you couldn't pay me enough to live in Seattle—but as cities go, it's fine. Republicans who hate big disorderly cities like I do should just enjoy their suburban parking lots and breathing room, and quit pretending city chaos equals Democratic mismanagement.

[int_19h]

I agree that in many cases there isn't any substance behind the talk. Yet the single largest state-to-state flow of people is from California to Texas, not the other way around; surely there's something objective that is driving that. And, given the time and effort required for such a move, it's not something most people would do on a whim without doing at least some research.

[ksenzee]

Hm. We have plenty of Washington-to-Texas migration from the suburbs, and there's no serious contention that, say, Auburn and Kent are mismanaged by Democrats. I know multiple families who have left for Texas in the last few years, and it wasn't "this place has crap government," it was "this place is woke." That is, they wanted more "traditional values" in their kids' schools and fewer BLM and pride flags. To me that's a valid and objective reason to leave (and honestly they're welcome to go, I don't want them running for school board even if we are friends) but it doesn't support the contention that government here is incompetent. It just means government here is socially liberal, which it unquestionably is.

[int_19h]

There are certainly people leaving for these reasons. Yet polls also show that there are also plenty of left-leaning folk who move.

[joshuamorton]

"why is the largest single state transfer from the largest state by population to the second largest state by population" is perhaps not that surprising a result.

[int_19h]

Perhaps, but look at the entire people. California is losing people; Texas is gaining them. And it's not just California that has a net outflow to red states; New York and Illinois are also seeing an outflow.

[rayiner]

An even better comparison in California to California. The year Apple IPOed, Reagan handily won California. Santa Clara County only voted a democrat for President twice between 1948 and 1987–LBJ (who won 20 points nationwide), and weirdly enough Hubert Humphrey. In the founding and golden ages of Silicon Valley, it was a red suburb in a red state. It was like what Florida is now.

[int_19h]

Yeah, no. GOP today has very little semblance to GOP of Reagan times (although the seeds of the present insanity have been sown then, and even earlier - Trumpism is a perfectly logical end result of Birchers, "moral majority" etc). And there's nothing "golden age" about Florida today; certainly not when it comes to quality of governance.

[rayiner]

In terms of tone, it’s quite different, but in terms of governance Trump’s term was a pretty standard GOP term with the exception of immigration and foreign policy—which aren’t issues at the state level. Tax cuts, bootstraps, etc.

Calling Trumpism an extension of Bircherism is a coping mechanism, seeing as how the GOP is winning record shares of minorities under Trump. Instead, the Trump GOP is a hybrid of the Reagan GOP and Jacksonian/Jeffersonian populism. The opposition to immigration given the prospect of cultural change also appeals to many immigrants who left those places for good reasons. My parents immigrated to Ronald Regan's America, not Kamala Harris's America.

Florida is a tremendously well governed state. It has great schools, low taxes, low debt, a booming economy, etc. I know multiple families that moved there from Illinois and New York in the last couple of years.

[selimthegrim]

>great schools

So, letting any veteran be a high school teacher without any further qualification makes it great schools? The governor purging state universities makes it great schools?

[rayiner]

Letting veterans teach while working on their degree, which is what that law does, is a great idea.

And curating the education offered in public universities is a great idea too. Public universities must serve public purposes. CRT serves to undermine the society, not reinforce it.

It’s especially important to get rid of it in a majority-minority state like Florida. CRT education is racism. It teaches minority kids a different worldview and values from white kids—and an inferior one. My mom was born during British colonization, but she was educated as an equal person. She can tell you about Plato and Tolstoy. My kids—thanks to living in a blue state—are learning how to whine about “white men” and see themselves as different, and aggrieved. They will not be equal citizens when they grow up, because they are being socialized to be a lower, dependent class.

[intended]

COVID.

Return to office seems to be changing that flow.

[rayiner]

That doesn’t really respond to the point, though. Is Seattle’s government efficient and effective? To my recollection, Seattle doesn’t have great public services.

[ksenzee]

It doesn't look to me (from 20 miles away) as if Seattle's government is notably efficient or effective, and I'd even say one-party rule is partly to blame: opposition parties serve a useful purpose. But I don't think the standard Republican sneer of "look what a crappy job the Democrats do of running the big cities" makes any sense, either. The things Republicans are pointing at as symptoms of bad Democratic government are mostly just side effects of what people in American cities like.

[loeg]

Seattle's 2021 budget was $5.5B against a population of 734k or about $7,500/head. Bellevue, WA's 2021 budget was $1.7B for a population of 149k, or $11,400/head. To pick a random DC suburb as a comparison, Alexandria's 2021 budget was $955M for a population of 155k or about $6,200/head.

[jandrewrogers]

I think there is a correct perception that many west coast cities are shitholes relative to what their per capita tax expenditures buys in most other cities. It is an argument about relative ROI, not absolute quality of life. If I spend $150k on a car, I don’t expect a used Toyota Corolla.

Cities like Seattle generate inexplicably little public value for the extremely high per capita spending. It should be much nicer for the amount of money it spends. The quality of services relative to expenditure is not defensible. Many cities do far more with far less. I’ve lived in Seattle around downtown for a long time, but it is far from the only city I spend time in. If per capita spending was correlated with quality of city experience, Seattle should be one of the best cities in the world to live in, but I don’t think anyone would make the argument that this is the case. As with San Francisco, most of that taxpayer money is lit on fire with no accountability and no contribution to the public good.

This is similar to the observation that on the same stretch of highway, California somehow manages to spend 10x per mile as its neighbors for visibly and audibly worse roads. People have made jokes about it for decades because the contrast is so stark if you drive on those roads.

It is not unreasonable for taxpayers to expect better than what is available in other cities when they are spending several-fold what those other cities are to achieve, at best, the same results. It doesn’t have to be a total shithole to be grossly mismanaged. People in Seattle spend enough tax money per capita that their city experience is far worse than what they have a right to expect.

It isn’t a political issue.

[ksenzee]

I agree with almost everything here, but this isn't what I'm referring to. What I hear ad nauseam is not that SEA/PDX/SFO are used Corollas but that they're Pintos with fire coming out the tail end. If what you're hearing from Republicans is "Seattle is an ok city but should have much lower taxes for the services they get" then I want to know what media you consume, so I can recommend it to my right-wing acquaintances.