[metadat]

The article tries to articulate the value add through attention to detail in manufacturing "so the bags survive 6 years of rough and tumble", but I'm not really getting it. What am I missing?

I had a $60-in-1995 northface backpack that lasted through hauling 5+ periods of textbooks every day, walking and biking to middle school and highschool. It worked fine, in fact my dad still uses it (30 years later) to hold and transport teaching materials for a college course he teaches. Lots of kids got by with a single basic $25 Jansport.

Today, kids in the U.S. don't even tote many (or any) books, most of the content and schoolwork takes place on a lightweight Chromebook that stays in the classroom.

[paxys]

The moment you add an aspect of culture and social pressure all economics goes out of the window. The bags cost $450 because it is the expectation that grandparents will buy an expensive school bag for their grandkids, that's it. Everything else ("it's handcrafted!", "it has 200 parts!", "it's durable") is reverse justification from there.

It's the same as trying to figure out why a tiny piece of abundant rock costs thousands of dollars when sold as an "engagement ring".

[hn_throwaway_99]

> Everything else ("it's handcrafted!", "it's durable!") is a reverse justification from there.

Thanks for this, exactly. It's the same thing with designer bags. After the rise of "superfake" luxury bags that cost literally a tenth of the real thing, I remember reading some blogs trying to argue why people should buy authentic, basing it on BS "handcrafted quality!" reasons (the reason they were called "superfakes" in the first place is because the quality was basically as good as the original). Sure, some of the reasons were actually true (it does cost a lot more to pay workers in France compared to China), but any rationale besides "I want other people to know I spent a lot of money on a bag" is just post hoc rationalization.

[selcuka]

> Sure, some of the reasons were actually true (it does cost a lot more to pay workers in France compared to China)

Even that, is not a problem that the consumer has to solve if the superfakes can attain the same quality using cheaper labour. In that case supporting local jobs could be a justification, not quality (again, assuming that the quality is the same).

[MichaelZuo]

Or better yet something without any fake logos whatsoever that is even higher quality than the 'real' thing.

e.g. Even Louis Vuitton for their most expensive bags doesn't use the absolute highest quality leather, so there's room for improvement.

[eru]

> Sure, some of the reasons were actually true (it does cost a lot more to pay workers in France compared to China), [...]

Though that's mostly a rational for why the 'real' bag does costs more, not a rationale for why you should prefer it. 'Is' vs 'ought' distinction.

[nostromo]

Economists call these Veblen goods. The high price is the point and counter-intuitively increase demand since the goal is to display wealth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good

[GuB-42]

It is actually cheaper than many luxury handbags that are not handcrafted, have less parts, and are less durable.

So yes, it is expensive because of tradition, but it is also a well made, practical item.

[puppymaster]

> The moment you add an aspect of culture and social pressure... yep I personally think gender reveal, 21st birthday all out party and easter egg are senseless but here we are

[2muchcoffeeman]

This is a bad analogy. Watch the video in the linked article.

Then go and look at the prices of some luxury brands. These bags are cheap by comparison.

I’m not going to try and justify the manufacturing process, but this could be the price of manufacturing something locally and not in a sweat shop.

[xboxnolifes]

The cost to make might justify the price, but does the price justify the value add?

[guessmyname]

Curious coincidence, I bought a randoseru (ランドセル) [1][2][3] early this morning and complained to my wife all the way to the store. She doesn’t want our children to look different at school. They are already different enough for being hāfu [4] and she doesn’t want to traumatize them even more. The bags are stiff and, in my eyes, quite ugly, and children are supposed to carry several books every day, good exercise but there are much better alternatives. Schools are just too bully to let anyone use a different style.

As the saying goes → 出る杭は打たれる “The stake that sticks out will be driven down.”

[1] https://tsuchiya-randoseru.jp

[2] https://www.seiban.co.jp

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randoseru

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hāfu

[JohnBooty]

This may well be for the best. It's good to fight against bad traditions, but don't use your kids as the battlefield. Being forced by their parents to be "different" can really make a kids' life into hell.

[bradknowles]

That saying is also known as "Tall Poppy Syndrome".

[new299]

They also break... ours lasted 2 years and then one of the rivets popped out.

Generally I believe you are allowed to use a different bag, it's just... uncommon.

[nephanth]

Curiosity: do they have warranty (for how long?)? Does the manufacturer take them back and perform repairs?

[new299]

I think it depends, this one didn't as IIRC we got last seasons model as it was cheaper.

[toomuchtodo]

Is this a market opportunity? To make cheaper yet more durable variants?

[wraptile]

I enjoyed the article but like much of online content about Japan it comes off like obsessive fan service.

Can you imagine carrying 1-2kg empty backpack with you every day? Just because something took long to make doesn't mean it's superior in production or quality or even perception. It's pretty, fashionable and the tradition is wholesome but that's where it ends.

I got a free backpack with my new Thinkpad laptop recently. It's light, well designed, mass produced, easy to personalize - would take this over the 450$ school bags any time of the year.

[JohnBooty]

    I got a free backpack with my new Thinkpad laptop recently. 
    It's light, well designed, mass produced, easy to personalize 
    - would take this over the 450$ school bags any time of the year. 

Just to be clear: you're using your freebie bag to carry a laptop and not 6kg/13lb of schoolbooks, correct?

Something tells me the answer is "yes" which kind of makes me wonder why you're mentioning it

Do you also drive around in a compact car and think "man this is so much better than a school bus" and pat yourself on the back every time you see a school bus

[wraptile]

I'm confused how is that relevant what's being carried in it? in fact the flexible synthethic backpack molds much better to variable-sized objects you'd put in it rather than giant square leather bucket.

[JohnBooty]

You... don't understand how carrying heavier, bulkier loads will cause more stress on a bag?

[nephanth]

Weight pulls on seams and fabric, and since they're likely to cut costs on something they give away for free, carrying a high weight would probably shortening its lifespan

[Dylan16807]

> Can you imagine carrying 1-2kg empty backpack with you every day?

That's so light, of course I can. I'm legitimately baffled by the implication that this is heavy for a backpack.

[wraptile]

It is if you're a schoolkid. The difference between a flexible 500gram backpack and 2kg hard edge backpack is massive and in fact not recommended by most health experts. Ergonomics matter.

[Dylan16807]

You specifically addressed the idea of an HN poster having one, though, and compared it to your current bag.

It's a bit much for elementary school but I had a pretty big backpack by about grade 5, and my current 2kg backpack is quite comfortable.

> The difference between a flexible 500gram backpack and 2kg hard edge backpack is massive and in fact not recommended by most health experts. Ergonomics matter.

Sure, in that the vast majority of the difference is the hard edges.

Though you don't actually want much flexibility when you're putting textbooks into a backpack. You want relatively stiff padding to protect you.

[anigbrowl]

I can imagine because I did it. Many kids might learn out of Chromebooks in the US, but textbooks and copybooks continue to have value for many people, and don't depend on security patches or constant charging. For years I carried 6-7kg of books up and down steep hills for a mile each day, rain or shine. While I'm also a big fan of modern backpacks, purpose built ones designed to last have their own value.

[jerlam]

I'll hazard a guess - Japan is a walking society, and these backpacks are being worn every day, laden with books, back and forth from home to school, or on buses or the subway.

Americans generally get driven to school. The backpack is worn only between classes at school and then moved from car trunk to home, not worn during those times.

I personally wore out a $100 Eddie Bauer backpack every other year or so during middle/high school. I walked to school every day for over a mile, rain or shine. The zippers would completely fail, or the shoulder straps would detach. Eddie Bauer had a lifetime warranty so they replaced the backpacks without question.

[kasey_junk]

My kid has been using the same $100 bag for his entire school career. He’s in 5th grade and walks to school over a mile 90% of the year. In a northern climate. That bag looks like it will last another 5-10 years.

Frankly, his classmates have cheaper bags with similar outcomes so I doubt price is highly correlated with performance past a certain price point.

[JohnBooty]

When I was in school in the 80s-90s I pretty much nevvvverrrr saw kids reusing bags for multiple years.

I think cheap bags were just crappier back then

But even the Jansports seemed to get replaced. I think kids were just rougher on their bags back then. I remember my bags absolutely bulging with 4-5 big hardbound textbooks. Don't see that much any more.

[TimTheTinker]

Cheap Jansport backpack zippers didn't last long.

[JohnBooty]

Stitching-related zipper failure, or the zipper itself?

I feel like stitching in general is where Jansports fail first.... you have to abuse them pretty hard to wear out the material or bust a zipper directly, but the stitching on Jansports is not amazing.

Don't get me wrong... the price/performance/durability of Jansports is INSANE

but they maybe are venerated a little too hard

[aYsY4dDQ2NrcNzA]

Jansports had a lifetime warranty, I think?

[devilbunny]

They did, but you had to do without for a few weeks while they replaced it.

[eru]

German kids (typically) don't get driven to school, and get by with cheaper backpacks.

[stkdump]

It's not uncommon nowadays to pay 300€ for a Schulranzan in Germany [1] for 4 years of primary school, as opposed to 450$ of the price paid in Japan for 6 years. I don't see a fundamental difference.

[1] https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/news/scout-bis-zu-300-euro-k...

[eru]

I guess things have changed since I went to school 20-30 years ago.

[maxglute]

I'm guessing when you have a $450 back pack you're also taught to take care of it. A zipperless buckle/draw string bag with performance fabrics would probably be just as durable as these bags. And I'm not convinced these bags are provide buyitforlife value since a lot of videos show old bags getting repaired/restored which considering the materials and construction involved, probably cost as much as a new bag. The manufacturers has a section on leather care and maintenance when alternative is to throw a fabric bag in the wash.

[plorkyeran]

I used a single ~$200 REI backpack for all of high school and college. In high school I either took the bus or rode my bike to school, and college was exclusively walking. I replaced it after college because it was incredibly grubby and overkill now that I'm no longer hauling textbooks around, but I still have it and it's perfectly functional

[ummonk]

The article seems to be aware of the fact that plastic backpacks can be durable too: "Some schools in Shimane prefecture have moved to city-provided lightweight nylon backpacks called ran-bags (yeah, don’t ask me how they name things in Japan). Unlike the randoseru, these cost a much more affordable 8,000 yen (57 USD), are lighter, and just as durable."

[atoav]

Also, you add your kid to Club 450 USD-schoolbag. That can be good or bad, as the other kids in that club may or may not be assholes and your kid may or may not want to be in that club. Does your kid even want to be the kid with the 450 USD school bag?

I came from a family that could easily have afforded the 450 USD school bag. But that would have been ridiculous to me. If you are rich and want to teach your kid to treat money so they can survive without inheritance, you definitely should do the opposite of buying them the 450 USD school bag. A lot about a good person is about valuing the right things the right amount. School bags are cool, but bad ones are not that much worse than 450 USD ones.

As someone coming from one of the richer families in my schools I always was the guy using what was there. My brothers old bag, some rucksack that wasn't in use anymore, a shopping bag. I certainly never looked rich. If I wanted anything more I had to buy it using my own money, and that was slimmer than the money of some of my poorer peers. If I made my case well and long enough in front of my parents they would support what I was trying to get with a fraction of their money. And there was always birthdays/christmas. I was one of the few kids in school not playing the game of defining yourself via branded cloths and I had a convinced stand on that. Nobody that I truly cared about gave a damn about this anyways, quite the opposite: Many had respect for me not playing these games and having the convidence to do it. To

My parents not just buying me every shit was one of the best educational things they ever did (and they did a lot of good).

450 USD is a lot of money for any bag, the only kind where this kind of money makes sense is specialized hiking gear (if you hike enough to justify the expense). But sometimes not spending 450 USD on a bag is the lesson you need to teach your kid.

[addicted]

The article doesn’t try to do that at all.

It just points out that these bags do need to last 6 years so they aren’t throwaway items.

In fact, towards the end it points to how some schools are managing to achieve the same with $60 bags “ran-bags”.

I think you’re reading too much into it if you think the article is trying to justify the cost.

It’s trying to explain the cost, which is driven by the fact that these are hand made and have a ton of parts and also need to last many years.

[selcuka]

> The article tries to articulate the value add through attention to detail in manufacturing "so the bags survive 6 years of rough and tumble"

I don't think it does. The emphasis is on being a hand crafted item:

> A randoseru can have up to 200 die cut parts and polyurethane back plates, and are mostly assembled by hand, making it an expensive item to produce.

It even says that cheaper bags are even better:

> Unlike the randoseru, these cost a much more affordable 8,000 yen (57 USD), are lighter, and just as durable.

[hnbear]

My kids carry a ton of books, I'm a large guy and find their bags weigh a ton, it's awful for my kids. I have a 5'3 100' daughter and her bag weighs a significant portion of her own weight.

And their Chromebooks are not the tiny svelte high end ones. They're the chunky cheap and heavy ones too. And they're Middleschool, so can't leave them in one classroom, they get toted around, and back to home for homework every day.

[Rudism]

> Today, kids in the U.S. don't even tote many (or any) books, most of the content and schoolwork takes place on a lightweight Chromebook that stays in the classroom.

This may be a regional thing, because my kids have to lug heavier loads back and forth to school every day than I ever had to when I was a kid, and that's on top of their Chromebooks and sometimes an instrument for band. They also don't get lockers big enough to store anything substantial so they've got to carry everything all the time. We pretty much go through a new backpack each year for each kid because they get so worn down from having their capacity continuously stretched to the limit.

[dmamills]

> What am I missing?

Likely a disrespect for a living wage for a common craftsman, and a misunderstanding of what quality goods actually are.

Certainly a lot of kids here survived on cheap $25 jansports, but did the people making them?

[dimmke]

Man I'm kind of a bag snob but even pricier brands that differentiate on quality and worker wages are not $400.

I got a Tom Bihn Synapse backpack for around $200 in 2017 that I've traveled to many countries with and has been through I think way more than a kid going to elementary school. It's still going strong today.

It was made in a US factory with workers being paid good wages. $400 is a luxury/captive audience/conspicuous consumption price point.

[buu700]

Sounds similar to my Frost River Geologist Pack, which is around the same price point and handcrafted in Minnesota. I've gotten a lot of mileage out of it while often lugging 35+ lbs of stuff, and it seems pretty much indestructible.

$450 for an equivalent bag could be explained by things like cost of living differences, but the randoseru described in the article are smaller and made from less expensive materials. The design is arguably a little more complicated, but the price still seems high for what you're getting.

[maxglute]

>quality goods actually are

Craftsman also use to make each nail by hand. Looks like kids getting saddled with heavy 200 year old bag designs whose function hasn't updated with the times.

[kstrauser]

It's not my moral duty to keep the makers of expensive bags employed.

I mean, I do that anyway as a hobby, but I don't owe it to anyone.

[2muchcoffeeman]

But maybe the Japanese value some of their traditions and want to keep them alive. There’s nothing wrong with that either.

[kstrauser]

No, there's nothing wrong with that at all!

However, that works both ways. It's wrong to say someone is "disrespectful" and "misunderstanding quality goods" because they don't want to get their kid a $450 bag instead of a cheaper, still-durable one.

[dmamills]

Certainly not, and I don't mean to speak for you.

But lets just say that I exist within the FANG dystopia where at any moment I can be wrangled into a meeting with a half dozen people, that if you actually consider the salaries, headcount, and time, racks up to hundreds, maybe thousands of dollars burned. For the takeaway that the modal should be fullscreen, or that we are dramatically adjusting our "design system", or whatever may have been so mission critical. Real tangible goods.

But perhaps what I do is worth more, I mean, we are talkin' computers here! we are the true craftsmen!

[GuB-42]

> Today, kids in the U.S. don't even tote many (or any) books, most of the content and schoolwork takes place on a lightweight Chromebook that stays in the classroom.

Not in Japan, according to the article.

[rokkitmensch]

Three cheers for the Jansport!

[alpple]

I buy Jansport because the zippers never break.

[tharkun__]

YKK zippers?

[Doxin]

> I had a $60-in-1995 northface backpack that lasted through hauling 5+ periods of textbooks every day

Mine did that, and has since been lying out in the rain in the back yard holding firewood. It's a decade+ later and the thing is still perfectly fine other than being a bit dirty. Bet a good wash would get it back to being perfectly usable as a backpack.

[soultrees]

I’m with you on that. I’ve had a north face bag for almost 20 years (and it looks like it!) but it’s still strong as can be.

The unfortunate thing is I was in the market for a new bag and went to the north face store of course and the only bag they had in the whole store was some shoestring style bag. Quite disappointing to see north face forget their roots.

[rascul]

> Lots of kids got by with a single basic $25 Jansport.

Those zippers never lasted long for me.

[option]

"most of the content and schoolwork takes place on a lightweight Chromebook that stays in the classroom"

- a disastrous mistake.