[ireallywantthat]

Apple -> Moltenvk (Have to blame Apple for not supporting Vulkan). Moltenvk is used by games such as Dota2. If moltenvk doesn't work fine for your game, you must not target Apple Mac devices anyway.(valve dropped mac support for cs2). For non game cases, Moltenvk works just fine.

Nintendo -> supports Vulkan natively

Sony -> supports Vulkan (as per latest patch notes of BG3: https://baldursgate3.game/news/hotfix-9-now-live_95 )

Xbox -> Doesn't support Vulkan

Microsoft Windows -> Supports Vulkan natively first class.

AMD/Nvidia/Intel -> Supports Vulkan as First class APIs.

Android -> supports First Class Vulkan APIs natively.

Linux -> supports First Class Vulkan APIs natively.

[slimsag]

Apple -> MoltenVK is an emulation layer and doesn't give you as much control as using Metal directly.

Nintendo and Sony prefer their own APIs, NVN and LibGNM, and AIUI Vulkan is a second-class API on those platforms which does not offer as much power, it is widely understood studios use NVN and LibGNM to get access to the real hardware on those platforms.

Windows/AMD/NVidia/Intel -> HW manufacturers tend to prototype and release new features with D3D first and then 'backport' them to Vulkan after a while. DirectX 12 for example had mesh shaders for over 2 years before Vulkan got a vendor neutral extension for them[0]

Android and Linux are the only platform where Vulkan is a first-class citizen.

You could maybe argue Nvidia treats Vulkan as a first-class citizen because they tend to have vendor-specific Vulkan extensions for the latest features available before anyone else. But otherwise, no, Vulkan is not a first-class API anywhere except Linux and Android.

Graphics API wars are alive and well.

[0] https://github.com/KhronosGroup/Vulkan-Docs/issues/1423

[pjmlp]

On top of that, OpenGL/Vulkan advocates tend to ignore that extension spaghetti makes them also completely unportable when extensions are only available for specific vendors, and if they are lucky with multiple vendors offering similar extensions, there is an exponential set of code paths only to deal with all of them.

Making them in the end hardly better than multiple backends, when doing serious stuff across multiple GPUs and OSes.

[ireallywantthat]

You know that Vulkan targets vast amount of Hardwares which makes Vulkan Extensions a lucrative deal rather than thing you despise, right?

Don't get me wrong. I agree that it's less worrying to know beforehand that all the features will be available in the target environment with features made mandatory rather than extensions. But, it's not like the case of Apple/Sony/Xbox which has software tailored for the device.

Vulkan devices range from Virtual devices(Moltenvk) to Android(Low powered devices) to Desktops(Linux, Windows) to Workstations(Linux). Having ray tracing mandatory in low powered devices like low budget android phones doesn't make any sense, that's why it's made as extension.

But, you can be sure that any modern desktop with modern GPU by any vendor atleast adheres to Vulkan standard and has specified extensions available. That can't be said about experimental extensions though (Like Vulkan Video).

> Making them in the end hardly better than multiple backends, when doing serious stuff across multiple GPUs and OSes.

This "multiple backend" solution is not ideal too. Firstly, it was necessary because not all Vendors supported single Graphics API standard. Secondly, it isn't powerful as main API it gets translated to(DX,Vk,Mt). Thirdly, I don't see how it helps when target environment doesn't have an extension available.

Maybe "Multiple Backend" solutions might make few things easier like removing Verbosity and maybe they are good for Small applications but I don't think they are worthy replacements to Main APIs

[pjmlp]

A wall of text to argue in favour of extension spaghetti.

How many cross platform applications have you shipped with Khronos APIs?

I did my graduation thesis in 3D particle visualisation and marching cubes implementation, based on a framework ported from NeXT/Objective-C in Windows/C++, using OpenGL.

Contributed to SDL, Ogre3D and jMonkeyEngine.

Also contributed to some BabylonJS stuff in WebGPU.

What are you 3D credentials?

[Alupis]

> I did my graduation thesis in 3D particle visualisation

> Contributed to SDL, Ogre3D and jMonkeyEngine.

> What are you 3D credentials?

Appealing to Authority[1] is a fallacy/bias and a quick way to lose a debate.

Instead of saying you have all these creds and therefore your opinion matters more - explain why what you are arguing against is bad. If you are an actual expert, that will be shown through well formed arguments all on it's own.

Not all experts share your opinion, clearly, which makes this angle unhelpful.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

[pjmlp]

Nah, as my experience in 30 years of industry shows, those that come up with appeal to authority argument, aren't really interested in listening anyway.

Life is too short to bother.

[ireallywantthat]

If you are that knowledgeable person in this domain, try to refute/discuss my content instead of asking my credentials.

What is the best alternative to Vulkan extensions in your opinion? Remember that Vulkan supports vast number of devices. I think that making featureset mandatory for all devices is not sensible approach here.

[troupo]

That's how you got OpenGL: by putting everything into extensions. You have to make certain extensions a part of the standard

[flohofwoe]

> Microsoft Windows -> Supports Vulkan natively first class.

Erm, no? Vulkan is completely implemented in GPU vendor driver DLLs, Microsoft has no part in this. The only first class 3D APIs on Windows are the D3D APIs.

In reality, Vulkan doesn't matter much except on Android and Linux.

[ireallywantthat]

I agree that Microsoft has no part in this. But, any computers which run Microsoft Windows has GPUs made by these Manufacturers: Nvidia,AMD,Intel and Qualcomm and all these Manufacturers have good Vulkan Drivers in Windows.

Thus said, even though Microsoft doesn't support Vulkan officially, you can tell that Vulkan has first class support on Microsoft Windows given that all GPU drivers have good first class Vulkan support and all Vulkan Applications run just fine on Windows.

> In reality, Vulkan doesn't matter much except on Android and Linux.

No, it matters. Vulkan is the first modern cross platform Graphics API which can run across Linux,Windows,Android,MacOS,Switch to name a few. No similar API does exist currently which offers high performance along with being portable.

[troupo]

> Have to blame Apple for not supporting Vulkan

Why would Apple support something that appeared two years later than Metal?

And as others pointed out already, Android and Linux are the only platforms where Vulkan is first class.

[ireallywantthat]

> Why would Apple support something that appeared two years later than Metal?

Because Vulkan is Open Standard? It's similar to how EV car manufacturers other than Tesla are now embracing NACS even though it was born at Tesla. It's also similar to how Apple adopted USB C given Lightning was already a standard before USB C.

You can't blame community or Khoronos either. Khoronos and developers did their best with best effort Vulkan-> Metal translator with Moltenvk and you can now not worry that your Vulkan apps won't run on MacOS(exceptions are heavy games and there are still many Vulkan extensions not implemented thanks to Metal).

And note that it's not you or I who is losing because Apple didn't support Vulkan. It's Apple themselves whose Mac devices have started losing share in Gaming Market. Day by day, Developers are ignoring MacOS as target. If this isn't a warning call to Apple, i don't know what is.

[troupo]

> Because Vulkan is Open Standard?

Why didn't Microsoft immediately embrace it? Or Sony? Or...

> You can't blame community or Khoronos either. Khoronos and developers did their best with best effort Vulkan-> Metal translator

Yes. Yes, we can and should blame Khronos. For their mismanagement of OpenGL. For the fact that they woke up and decided they needed a new API a full year after both DirectX and Metal, and managed to release first version a full two years after those two.

> And note that it's not you or I who is losing because Apple didn't support Vulkan. It's Apple themselves whose Mac devices have started losing share in Gaming Market.

Ah yes. They are losing because of not supporting Vulkan.

Let's see:

- iPhone is Metal (before you say that more people are gaming on Android, iOS's mobile gaming revenue dwarfs Android)

- Xbox is DirectX

- Playstation is GNM and GNMX

Apple is losing, should abandon Metal and go all in on Vulkan because.

[ireallywantthat]

> Why didn't Microsoft immediately embrace it? Or Sony? Or...

Because they are already established platforms in Gaming Industry? Windows has much of Gaming market share. Xbox and PlayStation are popular Consoles. They probably don't loose anything by supporting Vulkan although supporting Vulkan would be awesome on their part.

> Ah yes. They are losing because of not supporting Vulkan.Xbox is DirectX. Playstation is GNM and GNMX

I was only talking about MacOS.

> before you say that more people are gaming on Android, iOS's mobile gaming revenue dwarfs Android

I didn't talk about iPhone either. I was only talking about MacOS. despite being prominent OS, game title developers often ignore MacOS. Why? Because of Graphics API. No one bothers to target Metal for Games and this is exactly what i am talking about. If MacOS allows Vulkan or DX(ik that it's not possible), i think there could be more influx of games.

If we are talking about Gaming on iPhone, you must know that gaming landscape on mobile phones is vastly different than that of mainstream gaming experience on Consoles/PC. Mobile gaming landscape is mostly filled with non graphics intensive, micro transactions filled, Ad-filled(many times freewares) games. iPhone gets targeted because it has prominent share in Mobile Market but even then, not everything gets ported to it. Not to mention, Android gaming landscape doesn't suck than iphone. Prominent Mobile games which are on iPhone are on Android too and on Android they use Vulkan which proves that Vulkan is not a bad choice.

> Xbox is DirectX. Playstation is GNM and GNMX

Vulkan probably runs on PlayStation (see latest Baldur's Gate 3 patch notes; grep for PS5 Vulkan) but I am not so sure. Like i said earlier, these platforms are already household names when it comes to gaming.

My point was not to tell you that Vulkan is the "supreme" Graphics APIs out there. But my point was to tell you that Vulkan is the only one of "supreme" APIs which is most cross platform, modern, supported by gaming and graphics forerunners(valve, rockstar, nintendo) and there are no viable alternative to Vulkan right now.

> Yes, we can and should blame Khronos. For their mismanagement of OpenGL

What should they have done? At the point, we needed modern Graphics API. Mantle by AMD was forerunner and AMD was willing to co-operate. Nvidia too joined that bandwagon. Thus, Vulkan was born out of Mantle.

Should they have copied Metal? Since it was closed API from Apple, it wasn't possible. Should they have copied Microsoft's DX12? If Microsoft actually loved Open Source and Standards and gifted Khronos DX12, it would have been possible but they didn't do it. I think Khronos did sensible thing at that time.

[troupo]

So:

- you're willingly ignoring other platforms that Apple has and that are more important to Apple than Mac

- you're willingly ignoring the fact that Apple never care d about gaming on Macs

- you're pretending that gaming success is predicated on supporting Vulkan even though huge gaming platforms never supported Vulkan, and are successful

But sure. Apple absolutely must support Vulkan on Macs because they are losing out or something.

> But my point was to tell you that Vulkan is the only one of "supreme" APIs which is most cross platform, modern, supported by gaming and graphics forerunners(valve, rockstar, nintendo)

1. As if Apple (or anyone really, see Microsoft and Sony) cared about it being crossplatform and modern

2. There are thousands of game developers, and a very small number of those "forerunners" care about Vulkan.

> What should [Khronos] have done?

Not sit on their asses until it was two late. Both DirectX 12 and Metal were released in 2014. It means that Apple and Microsoft had been working on these new APIs since at least 2012.

Khronos woke up and decided to create a new API in 2015.

It's amazing you're blaming Apple and Microsoft for not doing something for Khronos out of the goodness of their hearts when the "amazing open innovative forerunners" like NVidia, AMD, Valve, Epic etc. are their members and literally did nothing until, well, it was too late.