[slimsag]

Apple -> MoltenVK is an emulation layer and doesn't give you as much control as using Metal directly.

Nintendo and Sony prefer their own APIs, NVN and LibGNM, and AIUI Vulkan is a second-class API on those platforms which does not offer as much power, it is widely understood studios use NVN and LibGNM to get access to the real hardware on those platforms.

Windows/AMD/NVidia/Intel -> HW manufacturers tend to prototype and release new features with D3D first and then 'backport' them to Vulkan after a while. DirectX 12 for example had mesh shaders for over 2 years before Vulkan got a vendor neutral extension for them[0]

Android and Linux are the only platform where Vulkan is a first-class citizen.

You could maybe argue Nvidia treats Vulkan as a first-class citizen because they tend to have vendor-specific Vulkan extensions for the latest features available before anyone else. But otherwise, no, Vulkan is not a first-class API anywhere except Linux and Android.

Graphics API wars are alive and well.

[0] https://github.com/KhronosGroup/Vulkan-Docs/issues/1423

[pjmlp]

On top of that, OpenGL/Vulkan advocates tend to ignore that extension spaghetti makes them also completely unportable when extensions are only available for specific vendors, and if they are lucky with multiple vendors offering similar extensions, there is an exponential set of code paths only to deal with all of them.

Making them in the end hardly better than multiple backends, when doing serious stuff across multiple GPUs and OSes.

[ireallywantthat]

You know that Vulkan targets vast amount of Hardwares which makes Vulkan Extensions a lucrative deal rather than thing you despise, right?

Don't get me wrong. I agree that it's less worrying to know beforehand that all the features will be available in the target environment with features made mandatory rather than extensions. But, it's not like the case of Apple/Sony/Xbox which has software tailored for the device.

Vulkan devices range from Virtual devices(Moltenvk) to Android(Low powered devices) to Desktops(Linux, Windows) to Workstations(Linux). Having ray tracing mandatory in low powered devices like low budget android phones doesn't make any sense, that's why it's made as extension.

But, you can be sure that any modern desktop with modern GPU by any vendor atleast adheres to Vulkan standard and has specified extensions available. That can't be said about experimental extensions though (Like Vulkan Video).

> Making them in the end hardly better than multiple backends, when doing serious stuff across multiple GPUs and OSes.

This "multiple backend" solution is not ideal too. Firstly, it was necessary because not all Vendors supported single Graphics API standard. Secondly, it isn't powerful as main API it gets translated to(DX,Vk,Mt). Thirdly, I don't see how it helps when target environment doesn't have an extension available.

Maybe "Multiple Backend" solutions might make few things easier like removing Verbosity and maybe they are good for Small applications but I don't think they are worthy replacements to Main APIs

[pjmlp]

A wall of text to argue in favour of extension spaghetti.

How many cross platform applications have you shipped with Khronos APIs?

I did my graduation thesis in 3D particle visualisation and marching cubes implementation, based on a framework ported from NeXT/Objective-C in Windows/C++, using OpenGL.

Contributed to SDL, Ogre3D and jMonkeyEngine.

Also contributed to some BabylonJS stuff in WebGPU.

What are you 3D credentials?

[Alupis]

> I did my graduation thesis in 3D particle visualisation

> Contributed to SDL, Ogre3D and jMonkeyEngine.

> What are you 3D credentials?

Appealing to Authority[1] is a fallacy/bias and a quick way to lose a debate.

Instead of saying you have all these creds and therefore your opinion matters more - explain why what you are arguing against is bad. If you are an actual expert, that will be shown through well formed arguments all on it's own.

Not all experts share your opinion, clearly, which makes this angle unhelpful.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

[pjmlp]

Nah, as my experience in 30 years of industry shows, those that come up with appeal to authority argument, aren't really interested in listening anyway.

Life is too short to bother.

[ireallywantthat]

If you are that knowledgeable person in this domain, try to refute/discuss my content instead of asking my credentials.

What is the best alternative to Vulkan extensions in your opinion? Remember that Vulkan supports vast number of devices. I think that making featureset mandatory for all devices is not sensible approach here.

[troupo]

That's how you got OpenGL: by putting everything into extensions. You have to make certain extensions a part of the standard