[crysin]

Small studios absolutely will return to Unity. This whole debacle will be a faint memory a year from now, the marketing machine will continue and indie developers will become entrenched in Unity's C# ecosystem, build tooling, all-in-one package + asset store. Some indies won't return sure, but Unity will continue to maintain it's foothold with indie developers.

[chii]

> entrenched in Unity's C# ecosystem, build tooling, all-in-one package + asset store

instead of indies, i think this applies much more to mid-level studios. Indies tend to be much more flexible and agile, esp. very small indies. Mid-level studios, with a dozen people that have gotten used to the toolchains and have existing investment in it (any custom plugins for example), would have a harder time switching away.

However, this whole debacle just goes to show that proprietary software may be a trap, unless the T&C explicitly clarifies and makes it _not_ a trap. This is what unreal engine has done (you at least will always remain on the same T&C for the version you signed it for).

Open source is a much safer bet for the long term for an indie, esp. if they're just starting out now and do not have toolchains attached to unity. And the godot ecosystem is just budding right now, which means the opportunities are also great there.

[qwytw]

> which means the opportunities are also great there

Opportunities to spend significant amounts of time working on tooling and other engine features (with a non insignificant likelihood of still ending up with something inferior to Unity depending on your use-case) instead of actually making your game?

Yes, what Unity's management tried pulling off was stupid. However The engine itself is remarkably cheap from the perspective of many developers compared to any open source options.

> unless the T&C explicitly clarifies and makes it

Funnily enough IIRC Unity had a similar issue with the T&C back in 2019 when they promised to never change it retroactively again. Somehow they managed to "forget" it in a couple of years...

I guess one important difference with Unreal is that Epic has way less bloat (several times less employees) and make huge amounts of money from Fortnite so they don't need to try and squeeze as much as possible from their engine clients (currently anyway..)

[chii]

> T&C back in 2019 when they promised to never change it retroactively again.

it's not about changing it, it's about including a clause in the T&C that the version they signed is the version in perpetuity for their version of software (obviously, an upgraded version may have the T&C changed).

Unreal has this clause iirc, but not in unity.

[qwytw]

Yeah, I was talking about retroactive changes of course (and not changes for future versions).

Their founder/CTO (who seems to be MIA these days) published this back in 2019:

https://blog.unity.com/news/updated-terms-of-service-and-com...

"For this reason, we now allow users to continue to use the TOS for the same major (year-based) version number, including Long Term Stable (LTS) builds that you are using in your project."

Which is something they presumably "forgot" about...

[chii]

yea, they did "forget" it. It's because this condition is _not_ in the TOS! It's a side-channel communication/agreement.

The unreal terms[1]:

> 7. The Agreement Between You and Epic

> a. Amendments

> If we make changes to this Agreement, you are not required to accept the amended Agreement, and this Agreement will continue to govern your use of any Licensed Technology you already have access to.

vs the unity terms[2]:

> 23.2 Changes to Terms

> To the maximum extent permitted by applicable law, Unity reserves the right from time to time to (and you acknowledge that Unity may) modify these Terms (including, for the avoidance of doubt, the Additional Terms) without prior notice.

[1] https://www.unrealengine.com/en-US/eula/unreal

[2] https://unity.com/legal/terms-of-service

[qwytw]

> _not_ in the TOS! It's a side-channel communication/agreement

I never implied it was otherwise.

However if we look at their TOS from 2019 (the time of this blog post) they do have this:

> if the Updated Terms adversely impact your rights, you may elect to continue to use any current-year versions of the Unity Software (e.g., 2018.x and 2018.y and any Long Term Supported (LTS) versions for that current-year release) according to the terms that applied just prior to the Updated Terms (the “Prior Terms”). The Updated Terms will then not apply to your use of those current-year versions unless and until you update to a subsequent year version of the Unity Software (e.g. from 2019.4 to 2020.1)

I don't think the section is still there anymore? But presumably it still applies to you if you haven't upgraded past 2018/2019 versions. But it was actually in the TOS (just like for Unreal) which I didn't expect.

*https://github.com/thaliaarchi/unity-termsofservice/blob/243...

[TulliusCicero]

They probably will now, but if they had gone through with those changes, they would've lost a lot of studios.