[anderspitman]

I've had a great experience with eSIMs these past few days during a trip to Europe (coming from the US). It's so convenient to be able to arrive at a city and use airport wifi to download a mobile data package for a few bucks. The process is slightly clunky but not bad at all.

[wkat4242]

I'm in Europe and I've had very poor experiences with local carriers in getting an eSIM :( Most of them outright refuse unless you are on a mobile contract plan with them (I'm not, I hate contracts so I only use prepay). On prepay they don't want to support it here in Spain for whatever stupid reason even though I've had my prepay number for 10 years. They also levy much more restrictions on the whole ordeal: Usually only locally sold models are allowed. So you can't use a Dutch Samsung phone with a Spanish eSIM. I'm really annoyed with this because the whole idea of eSIM was to make things easier for the customer, not harder and more restrictive.

Perhaps the carriers that specialise in temporary data contracts for travelers are ok, but local permanent carriers are crap with this.

[vladvasiliu]

> the whole idea of eSIM was to make things easier for the customer, not harder and more restrictive.

I remember reading an article in a French newspaper about how carriers were "uncomfortable" with the eSIM because it severed "the last connection" between them and their customers. The latter would basically no longer have a reason to "interact" with the former.

I don't quite see how that's a bad thing. The less you have to deal with "those people" (and this works from either side), the better it is, no? In my case, the last time I've "interacted" with my carrier was some 10 years ago when my phone got stolen, and I had to get a new SIM. Other than that, I pay them every month and they make sure my phone works every month.

At least with my carrier, it's cheaper to get an eSIM than a physical SIM. I didn't actually get one, since I've had my current SIM for a very long time. They basically charge for the "SIM service", and there's a separate charge for the physical part if you get it in a brick & mortar store, or for shipping if you want it delivered.

> Usually only locally sold models are allowed.

How can they tell, are there still country-specific models? I know people from the US and from Russia coming to France, popping a local SIM in and being in business. These were all iPhones, though.

[Nextgrid]

> I don't quite see how that's a bad thing

But how is the carrier going to "engage" you? How are all the people involved in sales and marketing there going to justify their job?

A carrier that operates fully automatically with minimal customer interaction could indeed be more profitable, but it's politically impossible for any established company to transition to such a model since it would obviate the need for many positions there - those same positions rely on the current status-quo (no matter how mediocre) and will fight any attempts at improving efficiency.

(this is not limited to carriers, any large legacy company has the same issues - lots of positions are just there to create work to sustain other, equally-useless positions, while the new output of the system being zero or even negative).

[TeMPOraL]

> because it severed "the last connection" between them and their customers. The latter would basically no longer have a reason to "interact" with the former.

I love how they put this because it's exactly how I phrase my general objection to and avoidance of SaaS and other kinds of services. I do NOT want to have a relationship with every single vendor. Managing relationships is costly. Most of the time, those relationships are highly abusive towards the customer. And they're almost always artificial anyway; they exist entirely to let the vendor keep a sales channel open. That's exactly what I do not want as a customer.

[jdietrich]

>I remember reading an article in a French newspaper about how carriers were "uncomfortable" with the eSIM because it severed "the last connection" between them and their customers.

That's a very delicate euphemism for "eSIM makes it easier to switch networks, which would increase churn and eat into our margins".

[mschuster91]

> The less you have to deal with "those people" (and this works from either side), the better it is, no?

The less contact, the less opportunity to upsell you to something that provides them recurring revenue.

It's all about rent seeking ("passive income") these days, everywhere.

[raincom]

People use Airalo app to buy eSIMs, wherever they travel to. One can buy eSIM even before you land in foreign lands. I don't have experience with Airalo, but many recommended that app on this site.

[wkat4242]

Ah ok, but that's only for temporary use, it's not intended for real permanent usage, right?

I'll consider it if I ever travel outside of europe though (roaming inside EU was fixed several years ago luckily).

[em500]

This might be because most countries nowadays require a photo ID for SIM cards. The Netherlands, UK and US are among the few that don't (yet).

https://prepaid-data-sim-card.fandom.com/wiki/Registration_P...

[flangola7]

Photo ID? Then how do you get an anonymous burner phone? Order it online somehow?

[3np]

In an increasing number of places, you don't (except perhaps by forcing or convincing someone to let you use their identity). Where I'm at right now, receiving SMS or making phone calls require a subscription with photo ID and physical address - prepaids and travel SIMs are data-only these days. The latter ones also require photo ID for service activation.

[em500]

The whole rationale of the laws in these countries is that you shouldn't be allowed to get one.

[raincom]

For instance, Eurolink eSIM card with 180 days validity can be had for 180 euros on Airalo.com. They also have re-chargeable eSIMs, just you need to top up just before it expires.

[wkat4242]

Ah but that is really really expensive :)

I can get a local SIM with 50GB data that is available with a 10 euro topup each month.

Don't forget the purchasing power in Europe is much lower than in the US (especially southern Europe). For this reason local carriers are a lot cheaper too.

[throwaway67743]

If argue that it's the opposite as there is competition and in civilised European countries there is working regulation etc, not like the US where carriers are able to lobby and cheat to maintain their monopolies - case in point I have unlimited everything (Inc 5g, except MMS) in country and 64G in the rest of Europe for about 30 EUR/mo

[yosito]

What makes you think it's for temporary use? I've been using it for over a year as my only data plan.

[kiwijamo]

Is the price cheap enough to do that? Last time I looked it was much cheaper to go with a local carrier almost anywhere I looked.

[yosito]

Cheap is relative. I pay about $25 for 20GB, which lasts me a month. Yeah, local SIM cards might have cheaper options, but I'm not complaining about $25 a month. I spend more on a single lunch.

[markdown]

The cost. The prices are very high.

[yosito]

I don't consider $25 for 20GB to be "very high". Of course, you can find cheaper. But $25 is less than a lunch in most places.

[ranma42]

Vodafone in Germany was happy to give me an eSIM for a prepaid plan, not even a store visit required (but it did require taking a photo of my ID and a identity verification video call where someone checks your video against the ID). I guess with AI-based video manipulation, a store visit may be required in the future...

[Nextgrid]

> a store visit may be required in the future...

Or not, considering how store employees are treated and paid. It's probably much cheaper to bribe some low-level clerk than build & deploy a convincing AI spoofing solution.

[someotherperson]

They’re very useful. Although it’s sometimes hard to get eSIMs direct from carriers internationally since many only grant them on post-paid contracts.

SIM cards also have their place, however, which is why Apple’s take on it is weird. When traveling, especially with so much MFA (for better or worse) is linked to a phone number, it makes having your phone damaged a major issue. You can’t simply pop out the SIM and move it across to a new phone.

Even if you manage to get a new eSIM, most of the time you can’t activate it until you’re back in your origin country.

This as an issue (carrier or otherwise) needs to be addressed with some urgency.

[housemusicfan]

This can easily be resolved by not buying an Apple phone and buying a phone that still retains a physical SIM slot.

Stop giving companies money for making stupid decisions. It only emboldens them further.

[wkat4242]

The Samsung Z Flip 5 has this too :( Only 1 real SIM and the rest only eSIM.

However it is a bit more understandable because the flip has very limited space due to the hinge components.

[housemusicfan]

The USA versions of Apple's flagship phones (iPhone 14 and up) have ZERO physical SIM slots. They are dual eSIM only.

Models sold elsewhere in the world retain a single physical SIM slot.

Yes you read that correctly. They made multiple versions and the American one is deliberately crippled.

I'm certain the space regained by removing the SIM slot in a US-only variant has been repurposed for...absolutely nothing.

It defies logic why they would do this, beyond some grand social experiment they can execute with little risk due to cult-like monopoly control of the market.

I refuse to believe that they sold more than 12 of these SIM-less phones.

[wkat4242]

What?? I had no idea about this. I have not had an iPhone since the 6 so I haven't followed it that closely. I remember they offered eSIM for dualsim, I had no idea they were eSIM only in the US even for primary SIM use. Wow. This will so not work over here.

> I'm certain the space regained by removing the SIM slot in a US-only variant has been repurposed for...absolutely nothing.

Yeah, after all the specs are no different in any other way I guess?

Samsung is doing something similar here though. They leave out the mmWave antennas. On US models you can see the antenna cutouts on their premium models but in Europe there is nothing in that space, just empty.

It's a shame because while mmWave is not a thing here right now I don't buy my phones for just one year.

[housemusicfan]

Specs typically vary slightly with LTE band support but nothing that would drive large mechanical changes. This was a deliberate move, an A/B test of sorts.

Good point on the mmWave support. I wonder if that's where the antenna is located. I don't care about mmWave, nor does anyone I know, so it doesn't even cross my mind.

mmWave is a dying tech. It will suffer the same fate as WiMAX. If this is the trade off (and it shouldn't be), I'll choose the SIM slot every time.

[gorbypark]

I don't have the time to look, but I saw a YouTube video where someone swapped the dual physical sim daughterboard from a Chinese iPhone into an American one. It fit and it worked. I'm about 80% sure it was a dual eSIM only American model (14), but it's possible it was a single SIM/single eSIM one (13 and below). Anyways, I am pretty sure the space is there and is just unused.

[housemusicfan]

Amazing, just found a video where they add a SIM slot to a US iPhone 14. The space is there and the slot just plugs right in. It required removing some resistors (to reroute the data lines from the eSIM to the slot). They didn't even cut a hole in the chassis for the SIM tray; they inserted the card before closing the lid.

This proves it was purely a marketing move which makes the decision even more insane.

[wkat4242]

> They’re very useful. Although it’s sometimes hard to get eSIMs direct from carriers internationally since many only grant them on post-paid contracts.

Exactly, this is a huge problem for me because I don't do post-paid (after one bill with unintended overage charges, I much prefer them just cutting me off until I pay again).

The sim swapping being controlled by the provider (every time you need a new QR and they need to 'grant' it to you) is more restrictive too, and they usually enforce only models they sell directly. It's a real loss of flexibility that we used to have with hardware SIMs.

[WallyFunk]

> SIM cards also have their place

They're trying to kill physical SIM cards like they did with CDs. They only have their place insofar as you can say 'I can touch this, and also swap it out with another one' / otherwise 'tangible computing'.

[housemusicfan]

Killing off physical SIMs is like arguing in favor of soldered RAM.

Because that's all eSIMs are you know. They are not software SIMs. They are physical components with the additional capability of being provisioned remotely by the end user with a friendly UI that sometimes works.

Moving physical SIMs (and thus your service) from a damaged, inoperable phone to a new one takes approximately 5 seconds. This cannot be improved upon with eSIM.

That said, eSIMs have their place too, especially in the industrial IoT space. But completely eliminating physical SIMs from consumer handsets is beyond stupid.