[kunley]

Russia as a state didn't "descend into fascism".

It was always like that. For centuries.

I have heard stories about NKVD methods since childhood. The victims were my family members living in the estern Poland, after it was invaded by Stalin at the very beginnings of WW2.

What was happening before red revolution, during tsars rule, is in the literature.

It is funny how generations of intelligent, well-educated westerners live in denial, unable to admit that the barbarians have been always the neighbors. It never changed. The methods of .ru government never changed and the political whitewashing of it never changed.

PS. Ofc the first victim of Russian system is and has been the Russian citizens, murdered, robbed, brainwashed, dumbed down, manipulated and deprived. What is called by us "Stockholm syndrome" is a default life approach there.

[sneed_chucker]

Right. The history of Russia, as fascinating as it is, is the same story again and again for centuries.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey_from_St._Petersburg_...

[TheLoafOfBread]

Because admiting wrongdoing of Russia would go in face of their "America bad" mantra.

It is really funny to see western leftist pointing American imperialism here and there and when obvious non-American imperialism start happening all the western leftists are trying to bend over backwards to justify how Russia is not doing imperialism, how SVR and GRU squads can't be compared to what CIA is/was doing. Their doublethink is palpable.

[giraffe_lady]

This isn't really that inconsistent tbh. Your own country's transgressions should always be a higher concern as you have more moral culpability for them and more leverage to change them.

And one of the very core attributes of modern imperialism is using real faults in other nations to subvert, divide, and discredit local movements. It's hard to condemn another state without inadvertently contributing to your own state's nationalist propaganda.

[ajuc]

When lobbyists in Germany advocated for increased cooperation with Russia and against letting Ukraine into NATO because "we Germans have a moral debt towards Russians" - it seems ethical, humble, self-depreciating and anti-imperialistic.

But it was the exact opposite in reality. Notice how Germans hadn't said the same about other eastern european nations before 2022. Despite the fact that other nations were hit just as hard if not harder by Germany in WW2, and unlike Russians - didn't started the WW2 as allies of hitler.

Somehow the debt only applied to the authoritarian militaristic country that has lots of gas, not to its victims.

The historical self-depreciating rhetoric of some pro-russian Germans was used to justify siding with the bully against the victim because it's more profitable and historically it was the "realpolitik" choice.

Yes, imperialism is bad. But sucking up to imperialist regimes just because they aren't your own country isn't the answer. WTF people.

[fsloth]

There’s the historical pattern of German imperialism as well, where the sovereignty of peoples and lands between Germany and Russia does not exist. The historical smell is not good. “There is nothing of concern east of Germany except Russia”. Hence CCE countries joined the NATO as soon as they could.

[giraffe_lady]

A careful reread of my comment will show that I don't endorse "sucking up to imperialist regimes" of any kind. I am responding to the idea that it is somehow foolish or immoral to respond to your own country's imperialism even in light of the imperialism of other countries.

The point you're making seems good I just don't know why you're trying to make it to me is all.

[mistermann]

Especially impressive about westerners is their honesty about the shortcomings of their own nations.

[willcipriano]

I'm in the west and I'm often the only person in the room who is aware that the US has been murdering children in almost a dozen countries around the globe for the past two decades. Like they are vaguely aware on a surface level but they haven't really conceptualized the fact and say things like "Russias unprecedented invasion!" dramatically and as if they had a moral leg to stand on.

[vxNsr]

Unintentional collateral death in the pursuit of preventing much bigger tragedies is in no way comparable to an intentional conquest and indiscriminate bombing of civilian targets. Not to mention the direct molestations and mutilations that the author has extensively documented. And of course the many attempted cover ups (culminating in the attempted assassination).

The moral equivocating is absolutely despicable.

Has the US killed children? yes! Was that ever the stated or unstated goal? Never.

[Aerbil313]

In the pursuit of preventing much bigger tragedies? I can't speak of my anger rn. The IS is found and fed by America. They indiscriminately kill muslims and non-muslims, they don't behave like muslims at all and for some reason (?) they never touch Israel. All so that you can tell a hecking lie to come and murder our kids and rape our wives, and plunder whatever resources in our hands! To afterwards award the man who destroyed seven countries with a Nobel! I'm once again reminded that there is no modernity, it's medieval age all the way down, all the kings of west war for nothing but their power! We muslims are in no way inclined to harm you, GTFO of our countries!

[lobocinza]

They behave like Muslims historically did.

[Aerbil313]

No. Muslims did jihad, not terrorism. See the difference directly in a meme from the eyes of a leading Muslim news platform: https://muslimskeptic.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/photo_3...

In addition to that, it's strictly forbidden to plunder or steal, or harm women, children and elderly in the Islamic jihad. Pretty high standards the USA cannot and would not even dream of achieving. Snowden revelations come to mind.

[kunley]

Thank you for this comment.

I would add, contrary to that, physical eradication of certain parts of society has been and is the goal of Russian rulers. (Ukrainian hunger, Ukrainian dams in 1930s - the purge of Ukrainians didn't start February last year)

[mistermann]

Westerners are also experts in using language like an expert musician can play an instrument, always impressive to watch.

[spopejoy]

The slavish apologizing is absolutely risible :)

The US regime has (a) committed repeated genocides including children against Native Americans and black slaves (b) perpetuated the Jim Crow laws including terror, bombings and lynchings against the black population up through the 60s (c) invaded or directly supported lethal coups, dictators and genocides in Guatemala, Chile, Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay, Indonesia (d) overthrown governments and participated in assassination plots in South Vietnam, Congo, Iran (e) supported Saudi Arabia in their shameful war in Yemen. An incomplete list to be sure.

It's not that this is worse or better than [some other nation]. It's just that it's bad and pretending that the regime "meant well" is indefensible.

[b112]

Nuance, and context is everything, and you're missing a lot of those in your statement.

Even a drunk driver, who hits a child, is seen differently than a sober driver who purposefully decided to run one down.

[lordlimecat]

>the US has been murdering children in almost a dozen countries around the globe for the past two decades.

Do you want to spell out what countries, specifically, you have in mind here?

[willcipriano]

Pakistan, Yemen, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria and Somalia from the top of my head.

That isn't to mention CIA backed coups, etc.

Isn't it weird most Americans can't name, much less find on a map, the nations they are at war with?

[justsomehnguy]

The most 'amusing' fact here is what a country with 1.3M army doesn't even have any hostile nation at it's borders, so it's forced to literally go to other side of the planet to fight with anyone.

[dash2]

I'm perfectly aware of the US's flaws. What Russia is doing - a war of conquest against a democracy, involving war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide - is not morally equivalent.

[Aeolun]

I think it’s mostly a matter of scale. The US does all of those things (maybe not genocide). They’re a lot better at whitewashing it.

[jjtheblunt]

You’re not the only American in this room to have noticed things like that

[iavael]

After major political changes, such as the February Revolution or the collapse of the Soviet Union, there were brief periods of freedom. But, yeah, most of the time Russian authorities are quite oppressing and power-grabbing (even if not all the instances were fascist in a strict sense). Almost all major elections since 1996 have been rigged, for example. But many people in the West keep saying that every Russian is accountable for atrocities committed by the Russian government because they "elected" that government.

[FredPret]

The rest of Europe (if Russia can be considered as being in Europe) went through centuries of war, revolution, upheaval, debate, and other forms of blood, sweat, and tears... all of it culminating in modern humanist thought. Modern Europeans across the socio-economic spectrum think of themselves as having rights and opinions and so on. That's a novel idea in human history (and one we should all heartily embrace)

Russia had more than it's fair share of heartache, but it is not an outlier in not having been through the Western European developmental pressure cooker.

[ajuc]

Russia is unique in that it was european enough to be the colonizer not the colonized (so it didn't get modern law from its colonial masters), and yet not european enough to develop a modern approach to human rights by itself.

[fsloth]

You say “modern” but we could say “western” as well. There is a well documented gradient in attitudes of elites to autocracy as a style of leadership between Europe and Asia. I.e as Alexander the Great moved east, he took up to the local institutions of totalitarian leadership, and was considered a total dick by his generals due this.

Also traditional example is the feud between Greek city states and Persia (Which is documented in the painstakingly historically accurate movies such as ‘300’).

I’m not saying peoples are predestined to be forever in one system of governance, but the differences predate enlightenment way, way back.

[dralley]

>The rest of Europe (if Russia can be considered as being in Europe) went through centuries of war, revolution, upheaval, debate, and other forms of blood, sweat, and tears... all of it culminating in modern humanist thought.

As Timothy Snyder points out, Europeans didn't stop engaging in imperialist wars because they grew morals and humanist thought, they stopped engaging in imperialist wars because in the 50s and 60s they either lost them all, or knew they couldn't afford to win them.

Russia may or may not undergo the same development, but losing in their war of conquest over Ukraine is a prerequsite to any kind of progress in this area.

[fsloth]

Yep.

For example Winston Churchill lamented deeply the loss of India and considered Gandhi an annoyance.

Another reason was that the American system of rule based relations instituted after second world war meant former colonial masters could still economically utilize the raw inputs from their colonies without risk of losing the colony to another colonial power and hence being cut off from those markets and resources.

Before second world war any territories unable to defend themselves from european powers were more or leas up for grabs - hence you were afraid that giving your colony independence, another colonial power would have simply annexed them, thus you would lose the resources and the market.

The US rule based order was overall good for the world, regardless of so many documented events of behaving as dicks within it.

[FredPret]

They developed the beginnings of humanism and applied it to themselves long before colonialism even started.

Racist thinking was prevalent and helped justify colonialism and humanism existing at the same time.

But you’re right, if Russia loses, everyone will win, even Russians.

[FpUser]

>"It was always like that. For centuries."

Centuries ago all countries were committing atrocities and all kinds of large scale crimes one can imagine. You do not even have to go back that far.