[nicbou]

Germany also does a piss poor job of showing that it actually wants immigrants. The Berlin immigration office is a disgrace. German bureaucracy is downright hostile. Oh and now they literally stopped accepting citizenship applications in Berlin.

I know that it's not personal - the system is broken for Germans too - but it diminishes my feeling of belonging. I accept this relationship as transactional.

[sneed_chucker]

> Germany also does a piss poor job of showing that it actually wants immigrants

That's because it really doesn't. Businesses and parts of the government probably do, but public opinion is definitely divided on the issue. Germany as a country was founded less than 200 years ago as a nation-state, that is a to say, a country bound by common ancestry and language. The idea that a country like this (or any European country founded the Westphalian system) was just going to turn into a "melting pot" pro immigration state in just a few decades has always struck me as foolish.

The problem is that modern life destroys fertility rates, everywhere from the USA to South Korea the pattern is the same. But the economic systems, particularly pensions and retirement systems, are built around the fundamental assumption that, at the very least, there is a large enough working-age population to support retirees.

So to keep the system going you either need to increase birth rates (which is quite hard, Germany pays you £200 per month per kid and still has abysmal TFR) or increase immigration.

Using immigration to try to solve this issue is either a band-aid solution or a form of population planning "technical debt".

Because if you effectively integrate immigrants, they behave almost exactly like your existing population, including not having enough kids to sustain a workforce and then you're back at square one, needing to either solve the fertility rate issue or increase immigration.

On the other hand, if you fail to effectively integrate immigrants, you run the risk of them forming parallel societies, where even second and third generation individuals from these groups don't feel any attachment or loyalty to the host country, don't properly learn the local language, reject the local culture in favor of their heritage culture, and so on. The problems associated with this become their own issues that the country needs to deal with in addition to the population problems.

So yeah, the entire system is sick, beyond Germany as well. So your take of: > I accept this relationship as transactional. Is probably the right one to have.

[FirmwareBurner]

>Germany also does a piss poor job of showing that it actually wants immigrants.

Germany doesn't want immigrants, the business owners do, because they need labor.

[nickpp]

Then German consumers should want immigrants as well, if they want the products created by said businesses, no?

[FirmwareBurner]

Who said there are no immigrants? Every new year is a record immigration year. Also for housing prices.

The whole "we need even more immigrants" is wage suppression propaganda. Many of the big German business crying wolf have had record sales, only beeing kneecapped by the disappearance of cheap Russian gas and are trying to compensate it with cheaper labor.

[nicbou]

> The whole "we need even more immigrants" is wage suppression propaganda.

No, it's required to keep the pension scheme solvent.

[FirmwareBurner]

You're describing a Ponzi scheme. Maybe the Pension pot shouldn't be dependent on quantity of people and more on amount they put in.

[nickpp]

And also to keep the low prices of German products which keeps German businesses competitive and thus Germans employed, taxes paid, etc.

[FirmwareBurner]

You're making the race to the bottom manufacturing sound like an advantage Germany should aspire to. You have it backwards.