[Knee_Pain]

Breathing practices objectively have an effect on our body and nobody can counter this.

Buddhist ideology on the other hand is up to debate and everyone is free to try it or believe it.

Maybe in your experience meditation is enhanced by believing all that stuff, but that is your prerogative. I can do mindfulness and go to a psychologist instead of doing meditation and going to a temple because maybe that oriental stuff feels too alien and doesn't seem right to me.

[yadingus]

The other practices also have an effect on your body and mind, you just don't bother verifying it for yourself because you want an external authority to do it for you first.

You don't need to buy into the esoteric teachings, or even the core belief of reincarnation. But you don't have to reject them either. Just inform yourself on the basics and keep them in mind. "If this bit was true, what would the world be like? How would my actions impact the world? How would they impact my future self?"

In the end the whole point is reducing suffering, and the longer you wait for someone else to verify one claim or another, the longer you're going to be bound to your habitual suffering.

[roenxi]

The irony here is that hardcore Buddhism does debate the benefits of breathing. Nirvana is not something to be shunned. Not necessarily lusted for either. The correct attitude is ... up for debate.

[Etheryte]

This is such a silly notion, what does countering have to do with any of this? Life is not an internet argument.

[Knee_Pain]

>Life is not an internet argument.

except when you tell someone they should try mindfulness and they look at you as if it was voodoo crap

[0xEF]

I mean, it's not your responsibility to change anyone's mind. If you want to put info out there, back it up, etc, there's a good way to do that without going on the attack.

I say to each their own, so long as "their own" does not harm others. If Buddhism works for someone, cool. If going to a psychologist works, also cool. When it comes to mental health, I think we can all agree that a one-size-fits-all solution doesn't exist.

[Knee_Pain]

I simply said that breathing exercises have objective benefits which cannot be handwaved away. This whole spiel about argumentation was made up by a biased interpretation

[flangola7]

>that oriental stuff

Really?

[toshk]

Walking or exercise also have that effect, similar to mindfulness, if that's your goal.

Therapy in itself has limited scientific backing (specific types for specific diagnosis often do). But it feels rational.

However the main point is: Buddhism, and all religions, focus on why you do what you do.

The Western Way is confusing, partially career & material, bit of humanism, etc. Now that's fine. You can figure it out in this system and some people do. But there is no clear road. There is freedom in that, but it comes with a huge amount of anxiousness & confusion.

The western reason for doing things: focusing on getting external circumstances in order (friends, career, house, family) will cause a huge amount of anxiety. Buddhism, and perhaps also Christianity, give non-personal teachings to elevate your focus to a point where it's less about what you do & who you are.

You don't have to believe me and can wait for science to figure this out. But seeing the rise of anxiety, depression & pill usage, I don't have much confidence in the current understanding of the Western world in mental health.

[NoZebra120vClip]

I agree. I come from a contemplative Christian tradition, and we've adapted Mindfulness to Christocentric meditations. I also practice centering prayer, and this is in the Hesychasm tradition of Christian contemplation.

Hesychasm, and in modern times, Centering Prayer as well, are not without controversy. There are people who accuse us of attempting to "empty the mind" and push out all thought, but my goal is to fill my mind with Christ's abiding presence and peace, shifting focus away from my ego and physical body.

Focusing first on the breath is a fundamental building block of this technique, but it is thoroughly a spiritual technique. To rob this contemplative prayer of its Christocentric nature is to eviscerate all meaning and all purpose from it as well.

Mindfulness is not merely a meditation technique, even when understood by mental health clinicians. It is a state of being in the moment and aware of what we're doing, and why, while we're doing it. Mindfulness is especially helpful to people who tend to dissociate, such as a defense against emotional flashbacks or stressful situations. Contemplative prayer is also a way of life and a state of mind, and likewise helpful for this, but only when it's been practiced on the regular, because under stress, we revert to our basic training and become reactive, so it is necessary to internalize those breathing techniques and exercise control of conscious thought.

Many people, myself included, don't realize that we are in control of our thought processes. It's common to helplessly obsess and ruminate over something good or bad. It's common to expend so much energy on unproductive thinking. But there is a more excellent way. Saint Paul tells us: "the weapons of our battle are not of flesh but are enormously powerful, capable of destroying fortresses. We destroy arguments and every pretension raising itself against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive in obedience to Christ..." (2 Cor 10:4-5).

[zuzuleinen]

If someone is interested on reading more on contemplative Christian tradition I recommend them:

The Philokalia Vol 5 [1]

I started reading more on it after reading The Experience of God[2]

I was suprised to find out there was a breathing component as well and being so close to the eastern meditation practices.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09X9HRWXH/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b...

[2] https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00E64EH0K/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b...

[NoZebra120vClip]

There is so much prayer that is designed to regulate and temper the breathing. Where should we begin? Any antiphonal (call-and-response) singing or recitation is a breathing exercise: the participants are alternately vocalizing a prayer, breathing out, and meditating upon the meaning of the words, or they are listening to the prayer, inhaling, and meditating upon the meaning of those words as well. This pattern can be observed in the Responsorial Psalm portion of the Christian liturgy. In Byzantine liturgy, the first antiphonal chant that comes to mind are the petitions, where the leader (priest/deacon) prays for peace and favors from the Life-Giving Trinity, and the faithful repeat, "Lord have mercy/Christ have mercy/Gospodi, pomiluj". But there are many more.

Some languages are better than others for this purpose. Latin and Greek have excellent word formations with good vowel sounds, and these languages easily become legato, connected syllables throughout a smooth phrase. English and German, not so much. The Eastern Churches worship using the vernacular tongues, or sometimes using sacred, ancient languages, and so YMMV there.

The Rosary itself is a meditation and a regulation of breath. Jesus admonished us not to "babble like the pagans" because their "many words" were meaningless and fruitless, calling upon created things, rather than the Creator. So praying the Rosary (auricular, in groups) is not liturgical, but it is a discipline. The leader chants half of the prayer, then the participants chant the other half, and they take turns breathing. It is an intimate, primal, profound experience in itself, but the breathing is not a mere goal or object. The object is to enter into each Mystery, meditating upon its meaning for us, in full context: the context of the prayer, the place and time, our individual lives, and the life of the Church herself.

[Kbelicius]

> I come from a contemplative Christian tradition, and we've adapted Mindfulness to Christocentric meditations.

> Focusing first on the breath is a fundamental building block of this technique, but it is thoroughly a spiritual technique. To rob this contemplative prayer of its Christocentric nature is to eviscerate all meaning and all purpose from it as well.

So you've robbed mindfulness of its "budacentric" nature and it still works but if we rob it of the christocentric nature that you've added it wont work?

> It is a state of being in the moment and aware of what we're doing, and why, while we're doing it.

This is basically what every western source also says so I don't see why you think that "western" mindfulness doesn't work.

[NoZebra120vClip]

While I'm not a Buddhist, I'm fairly certain that the Buddha is the last guy to want to be the center of anyone's attention. Weird.

Buddhist contemplative traditions predate Christianity, and arose in distinct geographic locations, so nobody's de-Buddhizing anything here. Authentic understanding of the practices doesn't need to be a sectarian monopoly.

The uniquely indifferent, secular practice of "cafeteria Mindfulness" is the only novelty. It's exactly the M.O. of science: dissect a living thing and run tests until you think you know what substance makes it tick, then you isolate it, independently synthesize that substance, patent it, mass produce it, and then you wonder why you've got such shitty results in practice, and then you cover that up along with the adverse side effects, and charge the insurance companies triple profits.

[jinder]

How do Christian contemplative traditions predate Buddhism if Buddhism arose in the 5th century BCE?

[NoZebra120vClip]

Good call. That's why I'm not a Buddhist.

[Kbelicius]

> The western reason for doing things: focusing on getting external circumstances in order (friends, career, house, family) will cause a huge amount of anxiety.

As somebody who doesn't practice mindfulness but has read a fair bit about it this sounds like a strawman. What I've read is about internal circumstances that have a spill over effect on external. Which doesn't sound much different than the eastern teachings.

> You don't have to believe me and can wait for science to figure this out.

This discussion is happening under a link to a scientific paper ... what are we waiting and what is wrong with this paper that is being discussed?