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by crypot 1056 days ago
There were no ice caps when primates evolved. I am excited to go back to the climate of my ancestors.
2 comments

It's the rate of change which matters, much less so than the magnitude of the change.
This. The time for nature and us humans to adapt to these new circumstances is vastly shorter than in any earlier age of the planet.

edit: bryanlarsen pointed out that there was an even more extreme event in earth's history.

That's not quite true. 252 million years ago we also had a very quick 8 degree Celsius rise in global temperature.

It kicked off the largest mass extinction event. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permian%E2%80%93Triassic_extin...

We're about to outpace that.

"very quick" = 60 ± 48 thousand years, we're aiming for 100 years or so

> It kicked off the largest mass extinction event

Yet. Let's wait few decades.

> It is also the largest known mass extinction of insects.

We're already 75-80% down.

https://www.businessinsider.com/germany-insect-population-fl...

https://www.worldwildlife.org/pages/living-planet-report-202...

https://wwflpr.awsassets.panda.org/downloads/lpr_2022_full_r...

There has been about 69 per cent decline in the wildlife population of mammals, birds, reptiles, amphibians, fish across the globe in the last 50 years. The highest decline, 94 per cent was in Latin America and Caribbean region. According to WWF report, Africa recorded 66 percent fall in wildlife population, the Asia Pacific 55 percent and population of freshwater species reduced by 83 percent globally.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/brv.12816

The Sixth Mass Extinction: fact, fiction or speculation?

"Estimate that, since around AD 1500, possibly as many as 7.5–13% (150,000–260,000) of all ~2 million known species have already gone extinct, orders of magnitude greater than the 882 (0.04%) on the Red List."

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/22287498/meat-wildlife-bi...

The way we eat could lead to habitat loss for 17,000 species by 2050

https://www.unep.org/news-and-stories/press-release/our-glob...

Our global food system is the primary driver of biodiversity loss

We had a ~10C increase in temperature from 20000 YA - 13000 YA or so and then a yoyo jump back down ca. 6C and up again in a 1000 years, during the younger dryas.

While the 19th-21th century increase of 1-1.2C or so is a bit faster, it's not a magnitude faster.

Humans have definitely changed nature everywhere, and is probably responsible for many species dying. But blaming that on the climate change doesn't really make sense. Deforestation is much more likely to be the cause.

I'm not blaming it on the climate change. I'm blaming overshoot.

Mainly our agriculture (deforestation, biodiversity loss, pollution), misuse of fossil fuels and the structures of our societal and financial systems.

I don’t think that a mass extinction event is what people usually mean when they talk about nature adapting to the increase in temperature.
We are witnessing the sixth mass extinction event. Defined as the loss of 75% of species, this process typically spans around 2.8 million years. However, we're on track to reach this milestone in just about 100 years.

https://www.worldwildlife.org/stories/what-is-the-sixth-mass...

You climate guys crack me up.

15 thousand years ago Canada was under 3 kilometers of ice. Now it is home to 40 million people and covered in wildlife.

The human population went from 2 million to 8 billion during this warming period.

All the evidence points to a warmer planet supporting more life, not less.

The abstract question of whether a higher or lower temperature would result in more habitable land (assuming, say, a gradual change over a million years) is completely 100% irrelevant to the issue of climate change.

A fast enough change will:

- Make places where large numbers of people currently live uninhabitable due to temperature and sea levels

- Kill off most plants and animals because the ones in a given place won't be adapted to the new climate, even if theoretically the climate in other places would now be suited to them, in a way that will take millions of years to recover from.

Simply saying "warmer is better" is utterly missing the point.

There has been a 15000 thousand year trend, where a warming planet has resulted in more biodiversity on earth.

Where is the evidence that the trend is ending?

The rate matters.

An airliner lands on a runway and smoothly decelerates from 150 MPH to zero over 10,000 feet. This is just fine.

An airliner does the same deceleration over 10 feet. Everyone on board dies in a huge fireball.

Even for neutral or beneficial changes, the rate matters.

> covered in wildlife

You mean wildfire? Bad autocorrect. /s

Now do Sudan
Sudan:

current population 50.000.000 population in 1950: 6 191 000

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Sudan

I'd say they've been thriving.

The comparison I replied to was over a 15000 year interval. Please do not muddy the waters like this, it's rude.
There were no nation-states at that time either. It's going to be a meatgrinder this time around.
Several nation-states will be huge beneficiaries of a hotter world.

Russia's tundra becomes arable land, and their fossil fuels become more accessible. Their navy will be able to freely roam the seas when the polar ice caps melt.

Canada will receive the same benefits - enormous access to fresh water, ease of navigation, and agriculturally ideal conditions.

Greenland will have an increasingly large stake in geopolitics, trade, and energy.

China will be less existentially concerned about a blockade of the Strait of Malacca.

The Canadian Shield[1] is hard rock with a very thin layer of dirt. There's nothing remotely "agriculturally ideal" going on here. South and west of the Shield are peatlands[2] -- those are dessicating and deflagrating. As hot winds continue to blow across increasingly treeless land, thin topsoils will be stripped from the land. Saskatchewan is already facing a collapse due to farm practices, and a second "dust bowl" seems nigh inevitable. Do not look to Canada, we cannot feed billions in the decades to come.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Shield

[2] https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/wildfires-peat-chall...

Obviously, but you missed the point. The problem is competetion by increased polarity between the haves and have-nots. The latter aren't just going to roll over and die. They're going to go to war to survive because there's nothing to lose in not doing so and everything to gain.
> The latter aren't just going to roll over and die. They're going to go to war to survive because there's nothing to lose in not doing so and everything to gain.

And they'll lose.

If you look at the distribution of power, it's not predicted to change all that much. The superpowers are enormously capable of maintaining their grip.

The complaints of poor nations will be met with meager welfare packages and mostly tuned out by the working class of weather nations. It's how the world already operates.

I figured you would say that but your hubris is entirely unwarranted. The Taliban just handed the most powerful military on the planet their ass. They beat the USSR too. The Veitcong did it before them. Look at how badly the barefoot Houthis beat the shit out of KSA even with direct US support. Look at Russia being sent packing. Don't gamble on these things. It's foolish to expose yourself to those kinds of risks if you don't need to.
I'm not sure this is a good stick to measure. The American voting public didn't have an appetite for those fights.

Put the American economy at risk and you get the Gulf War. Attack America directly and you get the Pacific theater.

In any case, none of those particular points matter. No poor country is going to be able to resource starve the wealthiest nations. If they try to invade or block trade, they'll find out the limits of their power.

Certain cities on the SF peninsula like Daly City with their "natural air conditioning" might become the most expensive real estate in the world.
And a lot less population density. People in low-lying areas aren't going to be able to move to higher ground, because someone else already owns that ground.
Why do you say low-lying areas? Do you mean like because of coastal/sea-level rise?
And people think that ground can be owned now
Many animals 'think' it too. Grizzly bears come to mind.
There's a key difference; territorial animals are owner-occupiers. If a bear loses a territorial fight, it dies or moves. It doesn't call in the forest police. Also, bears want to keep other bears out. They don't much care about smaller animals, or try to restructure the entire landscape in the name of bear commerce.