[HarryHirsch]

The proxy war started in 2014 with Euromaidan. Here is what's baffling: no army goes to war except with strategic plans. The geniuses in the Pentagon decided to push for war but omitted to make plans for armament supplies! The same mistake thankfully did Hitler in - the switch to the war economy came only in 1942 when it was clear that Stalingrad was going to fall.

[Scarblac]

The Pentagon did not push for war at all, this is a Russian invasion.

[avgcorrection]

This whole debate is so moralistic.

What matters as far as planning is concerned is analyzing likely outcomes given your own actions. We can for the sake of the argument just take as a given that the Russian government is bloodthirsty and expansionist and wants Ukraine.

Event: Euromaidan

Likely long-term outcomes: ?

There’s not more to it than that. No need to moralize over who did what or who is culpable. This is all about one entity (America) analyzing likely outcomes given a series of events.

[avgcorrection]

> What matters as far as planning is concerned is analyzing likely outcomes given your own actions.

Should have been: given any kind of event.

[stale2002]

> We can for the sake of the argument just take as a given that the Russian government is bloodthirsty and expansionist and wants Ukraine.

No, actually. I do not think it should have been taken for granted that Russia would be stupid enough to do this invasion.

The fact that they were willing to make such insane strategic bludders is a bit of a surprise.

[thegaulofthem]

Technically correct, it was the US State Department and Congress (See: McCain, et. al.) implicated in the ouster of a legitimately elected Ukrainian president in what would most reasonably be described as a violent coup with the president being far upon by far-right militia, one that might reasonably described as Neo-Nazi in nature.

Considering Us behavior when the Soviet Union installed assets on Cuba, there isn’t a whole lot of ethical ground to be found here. Just Great Power politicians playing stupid games with innocent lives.

[calgarymicro]

Yup, poor innocent Yanukovych was only minding his own business when the cruel protestors set upon him, he definitely wasn't ramming through draconian laws[0] that would have ended free speech and the right to protest, given the secret police expansive powers, and censored the internet.

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-protest_laws_in_Ukraine

[lostlogin]

The US wasn’t invading Cuba when that happened.

If the US had put nukes in Ukraine and pointed them at Russia, and did so before the Crimean invasion, your comparison might be more fair.

[lisasays]

It was the US State Department and Congress (See: McCain, et. al.) implicated in the ouster of a legitimately elected Ukrainian president in what would most reasonably be described as a violent coup ...

No one in Ukraine believes this narrative. Why do you?

[_kbh_]

> Technically correct, it was the US State Department and Congress (See: McCain, et. al.) implicated in the ouster of a legitimately elected Ukrainian president in what would most reasonably be described as a violent coup with the president being far upon by far-right militia, one that might reasonably described as Neo-Nazi in nature.

None of this is true, what happened in reality and not in the fever dreams of FSB, GRU and SVR agents is that there where protests when Yanukovych went back on a number of election promises and started aligning himself with Russia instead of joining the EU Like he promised he would.

After that happened he was removed from his seat of power by the parliament and he fled back to his handlers in Russia.

[HarryHirsch]

The Pentagon should have recognized that the Eastern expansion of NATO would collide with the national security interests of Russia, and that war would be the inevitable consequence. It probably even did, the task of the High Command is to draw up and revise plans for every contingency. What went on between the Pentagon and the Secretary of State's office? Why was the military establishment with all its experience in logistics overruled? The incompetence and lack of preparedness that are on view here is staggering.

[Scarblac]

> The Pentagon should have recognized that the Eastern expansion of NATO would collide with the national security interests of Russia, and that war would be the inevitable consequence.

NATO is absolutely zero threat to Russia, and Russia knows it. Finland joined and Russia shrugged, and has since even removed many troops from that border because it knows NATO will not attack.

What matters is the national security interests of Ukraine.

Russia is a massive threat to the national security interests of Ukraine, and Ukraine really wants to join NATO to be safe from Russia. Russia knew that if it wanted to invade and conquer Ukraine, a souvereign country, it would have to do soon because it would not be possible anymore after Ukraine joined NATO.

Russian security interests, fuck off. Neither Ukraine nor NATO is a threat to Russia.

Ukraine's security interests, those are very obviously threatened.

[multjoy]

> and has since even removed many troops from that border because it knows NATO will not attack.

They've removed them because they need to avoid any possibility of a provocation. The merest hint of a wrongful look at Finland will not go well for them.

[Scarblac]

They removed them because they're sending them all to Ukraine.

[lisasays]

"The so-called victim must have realized that going out dressed like that last night would collide with the interests of young, frustrated males in her vicinity. Who, as she must understand, would surely be unable to control their impulses. And so what happened after that was just the inevitable consequence of her recklessness."

[avgcorrection]

> victim

We’re talking about the US here, not Ukraine.

Yes, if you are a third-party citizen and observe a woman as well as a group of men who you suspect to be absolutely predatory scumbags, you can make predictions about what might happen.

[lisasays]

You know who the "victim" of the current invasion is. It's not the US.

Yes, if you are a third-party citizen and observe ...

This is just spin and narrative to suggest that the war isn't really Putin's fault.

[avgcorrection]

> You know who the "victim" of the current invasion is. It's not the US.

Mhm.

The whole topic here is about how America could/couldn’t have anticipated the invasion. The very comment that you replied to says “The Pentagon should have”… that’s not Ukraine.

Not my problem that you are off-topic.

[martin8412]

NATO is a defensive alliance. The defensive alliance is only at odds with Russia due to the imperialist tendencies.

Not to mention that Russia has had a land border with NATO since 1948.

[sudosysgen]

NATO is a general purpose alliance with a defensive clause amongst many and a history of involvement in offensive operations.