[minhazm]

Reddit has handled this pretty terribly but I also think people are being unreasonable. This is no different than me creating a third party YouTube client, charging for it and displaying no ads. Why would YouTube allow me to do that? And why should Reddit allow third party apps to do that? Reddit screwed up in the first place allowing third party apps that they have zero control over to build a full frontend replacement.

They already have Reddit Premium, they should just say that you need Reddit Premium to use third party apps. The technical details would be pretty straight forward. If you look at the features of reddit premium the only one anyone cares about is ad-free browsing, which third party apps today get to give users for free. So reddit was having to compete with these third party apps.

[FemmeAndroid]

I think it would be more comparable if YouTube had an API that the developers had built their apps on, that mods and power users had come to rely on, and YouTube shut the API down or demanded ridiculous fees for the use with a 30 day notice.

The Apollo dev initially sounded okay with the idea of changing to a paid API access model, but when the pricing and timeline came out, things went from a reasonable change to a swift boot for a lot of apps.

[zdragnar]

The issue, as I've come to understand it, is not that they're requiring paid access to the APIs needed, but the rate that they are charging. It's quite a bit higher than comparable social media sites, and was high enough that one of the more popular 3rd party clients (Apollo) decided they would close up shop rather than operate at a loss.

IF they'd charged a more reasonable rate, that would have kept the entire thing out of the news and there wouldn't have been a blackout.

On the other hand, I'd be curious to know how much the other rates people bring up (facebook, etc) are subsidized by those company's ad revenue. I suspect that reddit's advertising doesn't make them nearly as much money as Facebook, but I could be wrong.

It's possible that they need to charge a higher rate, overshot what they thought people would stomach, and took the "we don't negotiate with terrorists" approach when people threatened the boycott.

If I had to guess, most non-niche users will find their way back. In particular, consumers of low-effort meme posts, pretty pictures, funny videos and especially adult content don't really care where they get it from, and will likely be perfectly happy with continuing on with new mods.

[minhazm]

> It's quite a bit higher than comparable social media sites

What site besides Twitter even has paid API access for something like this? I haven't seen anything to indicate Facebook charges for API access. Even then, you can't build a full facebook replacement with their public API's. I agree that the execution in terms of timeline was awful by reddit. But the pricing makes sense when you realize their goal is to kill off third party apps. Reddit charges $5 a month for Reddit Premium, so allowing a third party to charge less than that and deliver the same feature set is silly.

[proaralyst]

As I understand it, mods are mostly annoyed because they've been using the API to compensate for features lacking in their official mod tools. Making the API cost money means the unofficial mod tools cost money, and hiding NSFW content in the API means they can't moderate (or remove) that content though those tools.

I think the blackouts have got wider support because users are also annoyed about losing the 3rd party app experience they know & love (and I speak as one of those users).

It feels like Reddit could have provided a few compromises here: improving mod tools before the API changes, opting moderators out of API charges and NSFW restrictions and providing a reasonably-priced per-account subscription allowing API access (so us old farts could keep the experience we know and love, at a reasonable price for Reddit) would all be welcome.

[JshWright]

The timing of the changes was another major factor. Most of the app developers I’ve seen comment were more than happy to pay for API access (assuming Reddit set a good faith price point), but 30 days is not enough time to make that transition.

[tensor]

Yes, if they let me pay to get rid of ads and continue to use Apollo then I'd not be upset. People are not being unreasonable, however, because reddit did not do this. And thus, no I will not install their app, and with this stripping of the moderators, will no longer even use their website.

[r2vcap]

I also agree. I was using the rif premium version. third-party apps removed Reddit's ads and offered a paid version instead. I'm not saying rif is a bad app. It is uch easier to use than the official app. However, it is self-evident that it would have contributed to the deterioration of monetization on the reddit side. It is not a civilized way to blow up huge communities by inciting people and setting fire to their seats because their means of earning deteriorate. Moreover, if the alternative is discord or a service hosted by some random person on the internet.

[Rebelgecko]

That's not really true. 3P apps don't strip out ads. The API never included them in the first place.

I think it would've been interesting f reddit let the API exist in an ad-supported way and had a TOS that would prevent apps from removing the ads for non-premium users

[thatguy0900]

It's not really correct to say they removed reddit ads. Reddit never gave anyone access to put reddits ads in to begin with.

[bryan0]

Like many things in life, people are not outraged by the change, but in how the change was handled.

[HL33tibCe7]

I think there is a real difference in the ratio between consumers and producers of content on the two sites.

The vast majority (99.9%) of YouTube users contribute no content to it. The proportion of users who comment/submit on Reddit is much higher.

As an analogy, a third-party app for uploading YouTube videos efficiently, without ads, seems like a much more reasonable proposition, because that app is tailored towards content producers.

[michaelmrose]

The problem is reddit hasn't had competent developers in a decade and the market for third party tools exists because in a decade reddit hasn't been capable of providing a useful first party experience.

If old.reddit.com and apps went away I'd leave reddit instantly.

Offering the only competent developers they have a reasonable price isn't unreasonable.

[BugsJustFindMe]

I agree. Reddit has behaved very badly, but the kneejerk people demanding a cheaper than opportunity cost API have distanced themselves from sanity. It's one thing to say that one thinks reddit is making a miscalculation against its own financial interests, but it's an extreme form of selfishness to demand that someone else sacrifice earnings to provide perpetual unfettered platform access to things that were put on the platform of posters' own accord without coercion.

It's a true shame that your approach was not the chosen one. It would have been the right call in my view. But it's not anyone's right to get a particular outcome, and so many people commenting seem to think otherwise.

[Avamander]

> but it's an extreme form of selfishness to demand that someone else sacrifice earnings to provide perpetual unfettered platform access to things that were put on the platform of posters' own accord without coercion.

In that same sentence you highlight why it's not selfish. Reddit wants content and moderation, they're not paying shit for it. It's only a fair trade for people to keep their tools and clients in exchange.

I've said this before but yea, Reddit can do both all by themselves as well. Not sure how profitable that'd be though.

[BugsJustFindMe]

> Reddit wants content and moderation

Reddit benefits from content moderation, but reddit didn't make any mods be mods. Mods did that to themselves entirely on their own.

> they're not paying shit for it.

This is a nonsequitur. Reddit doesn't need to pay anything for the mods to experience compensation. The compensation that the mods get is having the subreddits be moderated in the way they want. It's possible (and unknowable) that, if mod were a position compensated in other ways, there would be fewer complaints about power tripping, but that's neither here nor there. Mods are already compensated by having exactly what they became mods for in the first place, moderated subreddits.

> It's only a fair trade for people to

It's the opposite of fair to expect payment for doing something that nobody asked you to do. If I come and mow your lawn because looking at a mowed lawn makes me happier, you don't owe me shit. I have already received my reward.

[Avamander]

> Mods are already compensated by having exactly what they became mods for in the first place, moderated subreddits.

Basically. And now that Reddit takes that away from I don't know how many, what motivation or incentives does it leave for both current and future ones? Sense of duty (LOL)?

[BugsJustFindMe]

Reddit didn't take it away from them. They decided to stop. People were moderating subreddits looong before any of these apps were available.

And it's fine that they decided to stop. People have to move on from things eventually when they decide that they no longer feel sufficiently rewarded.

I could likewise not mow your lawn anymore. I don't owe you the mowing any more than you owe me payment for mowing that I did for myself at the time. You might have come to rather enjoy having a mowed lawn, though, so maybe when I stop you'll hire someone else to do it for more than it would have taken to keep me doing it. But that's at most a miscalculation.

[tensor]

I don't think you understand capitalism. Reddit offers a service for a price, and if I don't like the terms or price I won't use it. That does not make me selfish. Thinking that I'm somehow obligated to pay them is the bizarre take.

[BugsJustFindMe]

You're making up a position that I haven't taken. Maybe you did it on purpose, maybe on accident. Either way, you're arguing against something different than what I said. Nobody is obligated on either side. It's selfish to assert obligation.

[tensor]

You’re asserting users are selfish. I don’t know what you think you are saying, but in a business the customers can demand whatever they want and leave if they are not happy. That does not make them selfish.

That’s business.

[BugsJustFindMe]

> You’re asserting users are selfish.

You have twice now fabricated an argument that I am not making. I'm not fazed by this, but I think you should be aware that this is a thing you're doing.

I've multiple times said that neither party has any obligation to the other. The people who do assert obligations for others after the fact for self-perpetuated labor are selfish.

[tensor]

> but it's an extreme form of selfishness to demand that someone else sacrifice earnings to provide perpetual unfettered platform access to things that were put on the platform of posters' own accord without coercion.