[taeric]

I find the root premise flawed. I have known many people that loved working on cars. The plethora of very old vehicles where I live kind of holds that up, as well. My truck is 23 years old, and I'm positive it isn't even close to the oldest around here.

Even closer to the general idea, the radio show "Car Talk" was less about cars than the name would have implied. Would love to see it revived in spirit.

That said, still a fun read. Not entirely sure there are general learnings that can't be found anywhere. Such that I would push for the takeaway of "don't stop looking for lessons when out of the job or classroom."

[ben7799]

Lots of jobs you can do on a motorcycle yourself in a garage are like 100x harder on a car so it's nowhere near as accessible.

Stuff like needing a lift, or needing a hoist to lift heavy parts like the engine or transmission.

And even almost new motorcycles have minimal computer/electronic issues where the manufacturer is hiding how to do things. Get the Service manual and it tells you basically everything except how to hack the ECU.

[polartx]

I think you nailed it on the head. Whenever something brakes, we’re faced with basically 3 choices: fix it, pay someone to fix it, or abandon it. One of the most critical moments before a choice is made, is the problem solver mentally overcoming the problem and envisioning themselves fixing it. “How much will I have to learn?” “How much will I have to spend on tools I don’t have?”, etc.

Accessing the troublesome parts of a motorcycle is orders of magnitude easier than with a car. And few specialty tools (I can’t think of any right now) are generally required.

I owned a few motorcycles in my 20s, but sold them after my first child was born. A decade later, after a significantly challenging year, I decided to buy a motorcycle because, “I just want something to look forward to.” Beautiful days are more meaningful when the weather is granting you permission to go for a ride.

[taeric]

Certainly. But the premise was 'Nobody proclaims “Live to ride! Ride to live!” about cars.' Obviously, the bit about there being popular philosophy written around motorcycles is true, but I'm not sure that proves much?

I'm surprised you would say modern motorcycles aren't harder, honestly. Even modern bicycles are getting into the "you really can't do this without a dedicated shop" for a lot of things. Regular maintenance is easy enough. But that is true of cars. I'm always surprised when I hear folks have never changed brake pads. Drum brakes are a pain, sure, but most folks don't have drum brakes.

[ben7799]

I didn't mean modern motorcycles weren't more complicated than older motorcycles.

It's just nowhere near as severe as cars where the manufacturers are ultra hostile to the owner working on the car and even do their best to make it hard for independent mechanics & shops to work on it.

If cars were like motorcycles I doubt we'd have movements for right to repair.

[taeric]

Right, I'm still surprised that motorcycles aren't just as hostile. Even tractors have gotten notorious for how user hostile they are.

[ben7799]

In terms of your "Live to Ride, Ride to Live" comment I agree with you.

I don't think there's any evidence to suggest passionate motorcyclists are dramatically more passionate than car guys. Lots of car guys have their entire identity tied up in their choice of car and bury themselves financially to drive that car and are pretty much obsessed with it.

[cwaffles]

I think that on average, car drivers are less passionate, as most are using it for utility. On the Enthusiast side, I think the averages are similar, but still lean towards motorcyclists being more passionate, with the main example being the % of motorcyclists having custom exhausts and levers. I'd estimate at least 25% of motorcycles have those features. For cars, I'd estimate 5-10% would have custom exhaust or steering wheels.

[radiorental]

They have, at least the high end KTMs and BMWs. You simply can't work on them yourself anymore.

Fortunately there's a constant flow of user friendly "low end" bikes coming out of Japan, India and China.

[sgt]

Certainly harder to work on but you can do your own maintenance. I have a BMW R1200GS, and there's really nothing you can't do yourself. Most of it is mechanical and the computerized stuff you can use diagnostics tools like GS911.

[red-iron-pine]

> Even tractors have gotten notorious for how user hostile they are

Stock prices have to go up, and that means subscription models and pay-to-fix

[radiorental]

Right! just last night I had a couple of free hours and thought... 'you know, I really should do a preventative valve check on my honda 450'. Youtube step by step to the right, cold beer to the left. Just bliss.

About the ECU. Bikes are becoming increasingly hobbled by emissions compliant ECUs. The aftermarket ECU options allow you to tune the bike the way you want. I'm not talking diesel-gate here either. My Honda ECU was getting me 40mpg, my aftermarket is getting 50-60 mpg but with maybe higher CO2 per gallon??? I dont understand what the rules/laws are optimising for?

[cwaffles]

The are optimizing for minimizing NOx, CO, unburnt hydrocarbons, and particulate matter. The timing of engines cannot be advanced so much to have high temperature burns which allows for NOx creation. See page 13 of https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyPDF.cgi/91010CTV.PDF?Dockey=9101...

[HybridCurve]

I agree here: Cost of maintenance from time, parts, tools, space and accessibility are all lower here. Also, as a whole system, a bike is more simple than a car. The only downside I can think of is that a bike is much less forgiving to mistakes.

As a car person I am a bit envious and long for the day when cars could be smaller, cheaper, lighter, and more simple.

[korse]

I think the key is that motorcycle riding hooks you into the machine in a way that few car builds can replicate. Motorcycle maintenance and riding is a tighter loop, with far higher stakes if simple procedures are not followed. Troubleshooting may be similar across all machines, but the best troubleshooting is not having to do it at all.

If nothing else, the tight loop created by the motorcycle teaches preventative maintenance schedules in a way that is tough to replicate outside aviation. Or you die/stop riding.

For example, I've blown a front tire in my car at speed on the highway with no adverse consequences except having to steer off center for a moment and swap the wheel in 5 degree weather. No biggie.

My bikes get routine chain, tire, fluid and electrical checks however, as a similar failure could end me.

[smileysteve]

I think this can be felt in cars; without the extreme life and death situation.

My father taught me the skill of listening to the car, I can diagnose many problems with a motor with barely any description, but I can get really far with a screwdriver as a stethoscope. Thanks to understanding how they work, even rough descriptions of symptoms or noises 20 yards away and I'll remark about what's wrong with the engine or accessories. (Granted, as a kid, we had the sounds of Sebring on reel to reel)

Luckily, ICE knowledge is also transferrable to fun things like boat engines. Boats, then have their own set of physics to try fun things with (like trim tabs, outboard hydrofoils)

As it turns out, a 20 year old car, a 20 year old boat, hobbies like track days and slalom skiing lead to many busy weekends.

[detourdog]

There is a similar type loop between old "British" racing cars I spent a fair amount of time driving cars from the 50 and 60s. The driving experience was a combination of boat/biplane/tractor. The little British cars had a certain sound that was correct and any variation from that sound was heart stopping. The best example from my experience happened on the Taconic Parkway. The sound shifted as the fan blades started to detach and fly off. I had no idea of the cause until I opened the hood.

Here is additional reading about mechanical things from a different era.

https://mossmotoring.com/manhattan-mechanic/

https://mossmotoring.com/souvenirs-and-socket-sets/

I'm sure non-british cars of that era are similar.

[taeric]

This feels largely like a post-hoc justification for what is clearly more of a hobby.

That is, the miles you have put into a car "at speed" is almost certainly far greater than what you put your motorcycle through. For reasons of the car giving much more utility of use. And the fact that you still have a motorcycle is clearly a choice. One that you have to put effort into keeping up. That you would also choose to see something special about that choice is not at all surprising.

[WheatMillington]

What a weird comment to make towards someone you know virtually nothing about. I'm not the person you responded to, but I put about the same number of k's on my motorcycle as on my car, more in summer. I consider my bike just as indispensible as my car, and don't at all consider it just a hobby.

[taeric]

I said it sounds like it. Meaning that, on my priors of every other experience I have with folks that have a motorcycle, it sounds like this.

If you are putting the same number of miles on a motorcycle as a car, you either don't have to drive much, or are in some other very fringe situation. Pretty much period. Yes, it can and does happen. It is in a minority of cases though. Happy to be shown data that this is not the case, of course.

Edit: I got mixed on some other posts, I didn't say this one "sounds like it." Apologies for the odd rephrasing in this post. I stand by everyone that has every pushed this idea forward to me does so in what feels like a post-hoc justification.

[OkayPhysicist]

I use my motorcycle as my main commuter vehicle. It's safe to say I drive it 3-4 times as much as my car, which only leaves home for grocery shopping and long (2+ hour) drives at this point. If you live alone, or even with just a significant other, it's a really convenient way to get around. Plus it's more fun.

What are you doing so much driving for that requires a car?

[taeric]

Personally, I don't drive much. Bicycle as much as I can, largely for commuting at a personal level. At a family level, we build miles on our car because kids and groceries.

But getting at a "how much do you personally drive" is silly. My point wasn't that some folks don't exist. It was that the norm is very very different. A google search claims: "The average annual mileage of a motorcycle is about 3,000 miles." Compared to: "The FHWA states that the average person drives around 13,500 miles per year. It equates to well over 1,000 miles every month."

Not quite an order of magnitude, but still highly skewed. Even in "commuting" miles driven, you lose the utility of merging your commute with a grocery run. Or dropping kids off at school. Very real limits for many.