[taeric]

Certainly. But the premise was 'Nobody proclaims “Live to ride! Ride to live!” about cars.' Obviously, the bit about there being popular philosophy written around motorcycles is true, but I'm not sure that proves much?

I'm surprised you would say modern motorcycles aren't harder, honestly. Even modern bicycles are getting into the "you really can't do this without a dedicated shop" for a lot of things. Regular maintenance is easy enough. But that is true of cars. I'm always surprised when I hear folks have never changed brake pads. Drum brakes are a pain, sure, but most folks don't have drum brakes.

[ben7799]

I didn't mean modern motorcycles weren't more complicated than older motorcycles.

It's just nowhere near as severe as cars where the manufacturers are ultra hostile to the owner working on the car and even do their best to make it hard for independent mechanics & shops to work on it.

If cars were like motorcycles I doubt we'd have movements for right to repair.

[taeric]

Right, I'm still surprised that motorcycles aren't just as hostile. Even tractors have gotten notorious for how user hostile they are.

[ben7799]

In terms of your "Live to Ride, Ride to Live" comment I agree with you.

I don't think there's any evidence to suggest passionate motorcyclists are dramatically more passionate than car guys. Lots of car guys have their entire identity tied up in their choice of car and bury themselves financially to drive that car and are pretty much obsessed with it.

[cwaffles]

I think that on average, car drivers are less passionate, as most are using it for utility. On the Enthusiast side, I think the averages are similar, but still lean towards motorcyclists being more passionate, with the main example being the % of motorcyclists having custom exhausts and levers. I'd estimate at least 25% of motorcycles have those features. For cars, I'd estimate 5-10% would have custom exhaust or steering wheels.

[radiorental]

They have, at least the high end KTMs and BMWs. You simply can't work on them yourself anymore.

Fortunately there's a constant flow of user friendly "low end" bikes coming out of Japan, India and China.

[sgt]

Certainly harder to work on but you can do your own maintenance. I have a BMW R1200GS, and there's really nothing you can't do yourself. Most of it is mechanical and the computerized stuff you can use diagnostics tools like GS911.

[red-iron-pine]

> Even tractors have gotten notorious for how user hostile they are

Stock prices have to go up, and that means subscription models and pay-to-fix