[ben7799]

Lots of jobs you can do on a motorcycle yourself in a garage are like 100x harder on a car so it's nowhere near as accessible.

Stuff like needing a lift, or needing a hoist to lift heavy parts like the engine or transmission.

And even almost new motorcycles have minimal computer/electronic issues where the manufacturer is hiding how to do things. Get the Service manual and it tells you basically everything except how to hack the ECU.

[polartx]

I think you nailed it on the head. Whenever something brakes, we’re faced with basically 3 choices: fix it, pay someone to fix it, or abandon it. One of the most critical moments before a choice is made, is the problem solver mentally overcoming the problem and envisioning themselves fixing it. “How much will I have to learn?” “How much will I have to spend on tools I don’t have?”, etc.

Accessing the troublesome parts of a motorcycle is orders of magnitude easier than with a car. And few specialty tools (I can’t think of any right now) are generally required.

I owned a few motorcycles in my 20s, but sold them after my first child was born. A decade later, after a significantly challenging year, I decided to buy a motorcycle because, “I just want something to look forward to.” Beautiful days are more meaningful when the weather is granting you permission to go for a ride.

[taeric]

Certainly. But the premise was 'Nobody proclaims “Live to ride! Ride to live!” about cars.' Obviously, the bit about there being popular philosophy written around motorcycles is true, but I'm not sure that proves much?

I'm surprised you would say modern motorcycles aren't harder, honestly. Even modern bicycles are getting into the "you really can't do this without a dedicated shop" for a lot of things. Regular maintenance is easy enough. But that is true of cars. I'm always surprised when I hear folks have never changed brake pads. Drum brakes are a pain, sure, but most folks don't have drum brakes.

[ben7799]

I didn't mean modern motorcycles weren't more complicated than older motorcycles.

It's just nowhere near as severe as cars where the manufacturers are ultra hostile to the owner working on the car and even do their best to make it hard for independent mechanics & shops to work on it.

If cars were like motorcycles I doubt we'd have movements for right to repair.

[taeric]

Right, I'm still surprised that motorcycles aren't just as hostile. Even tractors have gotten notorious for how user hostile they are.

[ben7799]

In terms of your "Live to Ride, Ride to Live" comment I agree with you.

I don't think there's any evidence to suggest passionate motorcyclists are dramatically more passionate than car guys. Lots of car guys have their entire identity tied up in their choice of car and bury themselves financially to drive that car and are pretty much obsessed with it.

[cwaffles]

I think that on average, car drivers are less passionate, as most are using it for utility. On the Enthusiast side, I think the averages are similar, but still lean towards motorcyclists being more passionate, with the main example being the % of motorcyclists having custom exhausts and levers. I'd estimate at least 25% of motorcycles have those features. For cars, I'd estimate 5-10% would have custom exhaust or steering wheels.

[radiorental]

They have, at least the high end KTMs and BMWs. You simply can't work on them yourself anymore.

Fortunately there's a constant flow of user friendly "low end" bikes coming out of Japan, India and China.

[sgt]

Certainly harder to work on but you can do your own maintenance. I have a BMW R1200GS, and there's really nothing you can't do yourself. Most of it is mechanical and the computerized stuff you can use diagnostics tools like GS911.

[red-iron-pine]

> Even tractors have gotten notorious for how user hostile they are

Stock prices have to go up, and that means subscription models and pay-to-fix

[radiorental]

Right! just last night I had a couple of free hours and thought... 'you know, I really should do a preventative valve check on my honda 450'. Youtube step by step to the right, cold beer to the left. Just bliss.

About the ECU. Bikes are becoming increasingly hobbled by emissions compliant ECUs. The aftermarket ECU options allow you to tune the bike the way you want. I'm not talking diesel-gate here either. My Honda ECU was getting me 40mpg, my aftermarket is getting 50-60 mpg but with maybe higher CO2 per gallon??? I dont understand what the rules/laws are optimising for?

[cwaffles]

The are optimizing for minimizing NOx, CO, unburnt hydrocarbons, and particulate matter. The timing of engines cannot be advanced so much to have high temperature burns which allows for NOx creation. See page 13 of https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyPDF.cgi/91010CTV.PDF?Dockey=9101...

[HybridCurve]

I agree here: Cost of maintenance from time, parts, tools, space and accessibility are all lower here. Also, as a whole system, a bike is more simple than a car. The only downside I can think of is that a bike is much less forgiving to mistakes.

As a car person I am a bit envious and long for the day when cars could be smaller, cheaper, lighter, and more simple.