[eliotte]

>By the logic of co-transformation, we urged brutal free-market policies on Eastern Europe, and then imposed them on ourselves. Having participated in the creation of the Russian monster, we are now forced to become monsters to battle it, to manufacture and sell more weapons, to cheer the death of Russian soldiers, to spend more and more on defense, both here and in Europe, and to create the atmosphere and conditions of a second Cold War, because we failed to figure out how to secure the peace after the last one.

>The development of Russia in the post-Cold War period was not the result of a Western plot or Western actions. Russian officials chose, within a narrow range of options, how to behave, and they could have chosen differently. The Russian invasion of Ukraine, in February, 2022, was no more inevitable or foreordained than the U.S. invasion of Iraq, in 2003. Still, it’s worth asking what other course we might have followed.

[medo-bear]

It is also worth stating that the US set the precedent [in post-Cold War era - Edit] for complete disregard of international (and even US) law for own benefit. Some examples include:

* Bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999

* Invasion of Iraq in 2003

* Recognition of Kosovo in 2008

* Military intervention in Libya 2011

* Snowden's revelations of global surveillance in 2013

* Military intervention in Syria 2014

Curiously, it was the US support for Syrian head-chopping Islamic freedom fighters that Putin said was the final straw for tolerating US unilateralism.

[JumpCrisscross]

> the US set the precedent for complete disregard of international (and even US) law for own benefit

Nobody followed the human rights or no-foreign military intervention chapters of international law, ever. Not in the Cold War [1]. Not in the 90s [2][3].

The one chapter that was held sacrosanct by the Great Powers was no annexing. There was Metternichean proxy governing. But no annexing. That is the red line Putin blundered through.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_interventions_by_the...

[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samashki_massacre

[3] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novye_Aldi_massacre

[medo-bear]

The US, a sole world leader in the 1990s-2000s, had the responsibility and opportunity to uphold international law. Instead they chose to function as an imperialist power. Today they claim to protect international law.

EDIT: RESPONSE TO BELLOW

> Russia was already violating the human rights chapters in ‘95

Correction, Russia was already violating rights of its own citizens in 1993 [0] with full US blessings

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Russian_constitutional_cr...

[JumpCrisscross]

> US, a sole world leader in the 1990s-2000s, had the responsibility and opportunity to uphold international law

That’s a hell of a punt there. You said “the US set the precedent” for disregarding international law, starting by citing the bombing of Yugoslavia in ‘99. Russia was already violating the human rights chapters in ‘95, and the Soviet Union (alongside America) was violating the foreign-intervention chapters since basically they were penned.

So no, there was no precedent. America continued with the status quo. You’re arguing Washington failed to create a new precedent, as it did when it had global nuclear hegemony in the aftermath of WWII. That’s a legitimate argument. But a different one from that which you’re making.

[meepmorp]

> Russia was already violating rights of its own citizens in 1993 [0] with full US blessings

Why are the Americans (or NATO) always responsible for the awful things the Russian government does?

[medo-bear]

Because Yeltsin was heavily supported by the US. He bombed elected officials not favourable to the US. Similar thing happened when the US supported Saddam and Pinochet

[thodin]

BTW, US embassy staff was trying to negotiate peaceful meeting between opposition and Eltsin's team. But "elected officials" tried to seize TV building with military force instead of discussions.

I don't see how US could be blamed for this.

[chrysler]

If you want Americans to run your country and be responsible for everything that happens there, then start by flying Stars and Stripes over the Kremlin.

[meepmorp]

Yeah, ok, so just the basic "America bad," view of things.

[meepmorp]

But bombing Serbia was a good thing, they were having a happy little genocide going and the US interfered. Similarly, the recognition of Kosovo is good in that context. Why are those in the list?

[medo-bear]

Both are illegal under international law

[meepmorp]

So is genocide.

[medo-bear]

There were certainly war crimes in Kosovo committed by both the Albanian and Serbian sides [0], but legally none of it is genocide.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_Kosovo_War

[_kbh_]

> It is also worth stating that the US set the precedent [in post-Cold War era - Edit] for complete disregard of international (and even US) law for own benefit. Some examples include:

Wow that is amazing considering the history of the country you're attempting to support here. None of this is a precedent, the Russians/USSR did it all way before any of this even happened.

> Curiously, it was the US support for Syrian head-chopping Islamic freedom fighters that Putin said was the final straw for tolerating US unilateralism.

I think you will find that it was Putins ambitions for imperialism that was the final straw in Putins actions.